Open Source Technology: Canine Defeat

[Psychlonic]

-cleaned-

[Valdravulfr]

Ill try help any way I can. Im thinking as I post...

[Dethkreep]

I've been thinking about this all day and I've gotten nowhere. Dogs are probably the hardest and most dynamic method of security around. It seems ridiculous that I haven't thought of anything. This is gonna drive me nuts until I think of something.

[Psychlonic]

-cleaned-

[Valdravulfr]

laced dog biscuits still seems to be the best choice...

Unfortunately for us, some guard dogs (them being police dogs as opposed to domestic) are trained not to take food from everyone except their master.


EDIT by Psychlonic:
(Haha whoops, I thought went I clicked I clicked on reply, not edit. Guess my response is going here:)

Exactly, and some dogs will just flat out ignore it and keep barking at you without training. Plus you've got to have a potent chemical that's not likely to kill the dog and will actually put it to sleep in a timely manner. Furthermore, you'd have to just toss the treat at the dog and hope it doesn't see you, because obviously if it sees you throw it, it's probably going to bark anyways.

Which is why I say I'm not satisfied with the method, despite it currently being the best universal option. It's still reliant on uncontrollable variables being favorable to the operative.

[killdozer]

laced dog biscuits still seems to be the best choice...

Unfortunately for us, some guard dogs (them being police dogs as opposed to domestic) are trained not to take food from everyone except their master.

I have a german shepard and ever since she was a puppy she wouldn't take the treats from the mailman or anybody she doesn't know. She will eat them however, if I take it from them and give it to her.

Possibly if you give poison to the dog with something in front of the owner, posing as the meter reader the day or so before an op... you can knock on the door and ask them to take the dog in because it wont let you near the meter and just make small talk. (ask what kind it is. say how it looks nice.) Then before you leave say oh, here give this to (insert dogs name here). That way the owner gives the laced biscuit to the dog and there is no chance of the dog leaving the treat.

[Valdravulfr]

Brilliant, but time taking.

[Ghost]

Knocking it out sounds like the best option if you absolutely can't just go around the damn thing. Perhaps if you got a blackjack, and crept up on it while it was sleeping? although if you can sneak up on it asleep, then you'd be able to just sneak past it asleep as well, so that's sort of beside the point...

[stealththief]

I've never dealt directly with dogs always going around a longer way but I personally think that a projectile tranquilizer is the best option if you can pull it off, quick to quiet the dog and lasts a good amount of time. I'm thinking along the lines of blowgun. However most people (myself included) do not know how to mix tranquilizer solutions ....

[ryangiroux1]

I either go around or I make sure the dog is eliminated. Morals be damned, I'm not letting a dog interfere with my op.

[Valdravulfr]

Knockout gas? Not ideal. Just throwing an idea out there.

[darktorn]

I either go around or I make sure the dog is eliminated. Morals be damned, I'm not letting a dog interfere with my op.

Killing a dog leaves evidence, and a possibility of someone discovering the body (a problem shared by knocking it out) if I see a dog I don't even bother Ill find another way round or not at all,

[Borninshadows]

I would say get a dog whistle, blow the whistle, and get by.
Or drop from a tree and snap it's neck on impact with combat boots.

Dog bodies are easier to hide than you believe....

[Dethkreep]

Kill it. Mangle it. Pass it off at roadkill for the night.

In all seriousness though maybe the dog whistle could work.

[Phantom]

bitch-in-heat urine. you can buy vials of it online, and it is a complete distraction, even to trained guard dogs.

[Dethkreep]

If it works on k-9 units I might consider buying some.

[stealththief]

Someone on a ninjutsu forum I'm part of posted this and it seems like it might be useful but not fail safe, description says it might not work on wild or very aggressive or deaf dogs. Check it:

Code: Select all

http://www.tbotech.com/dogchaser.htm

[Dethkreep]

That is a great find, however if you're trying to pass stealthily by, it might just make the dog bark more. But if you're in some kind of situation where you need to deter animals, that is a great method.

[Zaffron]

I think that the tranquilizer method will be the most effective, not practical, but effective method of carrying out this task. "Dealing" with dogs is kind of a moral issue, like someone already said. But about mixing your own tranquilizer solution, I have a theory. First, you go and buy some sort of extra strength sleep medication. Fake to your doctor that you have trouble sleeping so you can get a prescription to the more powerful stuff. Anyways, once you have that, put the pills in with a small amount of warmer than room temp water so the capsules or tablets dissolve better. Once they are all nice and dissolved up and in a pasty mixture, lather it on a home made dart and test it out. In theory, the meds will get into the bloodstream directly and not take too long on a smaller animal. Be very careful with this though, you might put the dog to sleep permanently. All in theory though...

[Borninshadows]

I think that the tranquilizer method will be the most effective, not practical, but effective method of carrying out this task. "Dealing" with dogs is kind of a moral issue, like someone already said. But about mixing your own tranquilizer solution, I have a theory. First, you go and buy some sort of extra strength sleep medication. Fake to your doctor that you have trouble sleeping so you can get a prescription to the more powerful stuff. Anyways, once you have that, put the pills in with a small amount of warmer than room temp water so the capsules or tablets dissolve better. Once they are all nice and dissolved up and in a pasty mixture, lather it on a home made dart and test it out. In theory, the meds will get into the bloodstream directly and not take too long on a smaller animal. Be very careful with this though, you might put the dog to sleep permanently. All in theory though...

The yelp of the dart hitting the dog is the problem

[Psychlonic]

-cleaned-

[Kumori]

I might make one of my beginner ops to try out the dog-whistle idea. I'll go around to all the dogs nearby and see how many it quietens, how many bark etc. while keeping a safeish distance from the house, and somewhere where I can book it if necessary. If we know the chances of it working it might seem a more viable solution. Try it out if you're on route to something and have a dog whistle/paper and pen. I'll get back to you once I finish.

[Ghost]

What about a wet, scented rag laced with chloroform? Balled up and wet so you can throw it, scented so the dog will come over and sniff it, and laced with chloroform so that when the dog hears the rag hit the ground and comes over to sniff the strange new scents on it, it will knock his ass out for a few hours.

Obviously it would be a pain in the ass to make things work out, but the theory sounds great. I don't have to worry about dogs enough to bother with it more than that, but think about it - your best method to finding success is to use the nature of the dog to your advantage. This method does exactly that.

[Psychlonic]

-cleaned-

[Dethkreep]

This topic is important and we need more ideas.
In my situation I'm most worried about k-9 units over regular dogs. As of now, once a k-9 is on my ass, I'd be pretty fucked because I wouldn't kill it. So far the best idea I've seen is the bitch in heat urine. Anybody have experience with the stuff, or any input at all?

[stealththief]

If you know ahead of time that you'll get tracked by dogs you can grab a can of this:
http://www.bigandtallhuntingclothes.co. ... ting-gear/
and give the dogs a hard time smelling you, I'd be sure to put it on my boots/sneakers/tabi as well since those are what touch the ground most and not all dogs are trained to air track.

[Urgon]

AVE...

The method I heard of is to bury a glass jar of concentrated HCl acid on the path you are escaping and cover it with piece of chicken-wire and some leaves. When passing over you just open the jar and run past it. Every sniffing dog that will sniff this, will be really messed up. Acid vapor will burn insides of his nose badly. It's effective against K9 squads. It's good idea to put at least 5 jars on your escape route...

I never tested it because I don't like the whole hurting animals idea...

[Xenia]

Hmm... not sure if that'd be enough delivery of chloroform unless the dog's face was pressed into the rag with no other air coming into it's nose. Also if I recall correctly, chloroform wears off quickly if you're not delivering a constant dose.

I guess someone could try. I don't have a chloroform synth happening in my foreseeable future, but I guess the ideal method would be a rag with both that and bitch in heat urine... just thinking about that... that would fucking STINK. I'm pretty sure dogs would notice you before you even got in sight. Maybe saturate it with grease? Hell I don't know.

Anyways, assuming it tired them out and they went to sleep, you'd need to haul ass.

The nose of a dog is wet. If you quickly slap on a chloroform-filled rag on their nose, they will become drugged very quickly. As for keeping them that way, it depends on the concentration of the chemical. Moreover, it is possible to mix chloroform with certain other chemicals for a more potent mix.

[Psychlonic]

-cleaned-

[Urgon]

AVE...

Chloroform evaporates quickly, especially in contact of body heat. Also you need minimum 3 deep breaths to get drugged enough. Also you need to keep it in glass or metal container...

The best method would be to use darts with animal tranquilizer and rifles or pneumatic guns...

[Ghost]

Seems to me like you'd be better off using dog food laced with sedatives rather than a tranquilizer. The food - you can throw/set/plant where to need it to be and then forget about it. The tranquilizer needs to be retrieved, for obvious reasons, which slows you down as well as creates a wound in the dog and possibly some yelping as well.

[Urgon]

AVE...

K9 and many guard dogs are trained to ignore planted food. Tranquilizer darts are more reliable...
Maybe incorporate both solutions? This way one can try planting food, but when it fails, then he could use darts...

[Kumori]

I read, on totse I think, that you can scatter some really strong spices (as disgustingly smelly as possible, ammonium, paprika etc.) around and if the dog takes a good whiff, his sense of smell should be temporarily ruined. Seems like it could work, If anyone can test or confirm this, It'd be a nice addition to any pack, just in case of blue's with k9.

[Firaku]

I, for one, would like to see the effects of ultrasonic devices being employed at night. I know they usually shut dogs up pretty quick if they're barking, but they can also cause howling. I don't think this would fit the criteria per se, but could at the very least present a new option.

Best advice I can offer is never bother dealing with dogs, they are unpredictable and can put you in a lot of danger.
Though if I had was going to give it a shot I'd use harassment techniques. If the dog is enclosed in an area separate from what you want to infiltrate then its worth a shot.

In preparation for an opp, and depending on the reaction of the dog, leaving a ultrasonic device out for a few nights, and/or harassing the dog from a distance would most likely make it go crazy (throwing pebbles/sticks, making noise ect. Get creative). Anyone working/living nearby will just think it's a barking/yappy dog that's annoyed over nothing and eventually get tired of checking on it ect.
This means that when you do actually infiltrate the place the dog will bark and no one will care.

If you ever get the time try walking past a friends dog while asleep as quiet as possible. A fair indication of what you'll be dealing with.

And one last thing, if you have no choice but to face a dog head on, (eg, you punch with your right) wrap your left forearm with a jumper ect to pad it. Dogs always lunge for the chest area. Guard your chest with your left arm and take a defensive stance, as the dog gets closer lead it in and it will go for your left arm. As it latches on pull your left arm up toward the sky and with the dogs chest exposed punch it right in the ribs. If the dog doesn't let go, knee it in the chest or swing it off your arm and make a run for it. I'm most cases You'll either wind the dog or send it running with the first punch.

[Firaku]

I read, on totse I think, that you can scatter some really strong spices (as disgustingly smelly as possible, ammonium, paprika etc.) around and if the dog takes a good whiff, his sense of smell should be temporarily ruined. Seems like it could work, If anyone can test or confirm this, It'd be a nice addition to any pack, just in case of blue's with k9.

If you get a bit of turpentine on cat's nose they go nuts and lose it. Would most likely work for dogs too! If I find any shitty/annoying mean dogs I'll try it out.

[Psychlonic]

Firaku,
If only it were as easy as simply avoiding dogs. I don't know about you guys, but there are often times when entire neighborhoods sound off with barking and there's no other way around. Also, there's still the issue of time in that it takes several runs to either make friends with the dog or to make the owners ignore them. This is problematic when you must complete the objective on that same night.

Kumori,
Unfortunately that's one of those persisting myths that has absolutely no foundation. Spices won't ruin a dog's sense of smell because unlike humans they can differentiate smells and still track through the spice odor. Trained dogs will also largely ignore scents that do not match what they tracking. Another problem with using scents is that they can get onto YOU and if the scent is strong enough it might even help the dog track you down faster.
Ground sniffing dogs will resort to smelling for disturbed vegetation and dirt if your original scent fades away. If you run through grass, even if you have no scent at all you will still be tracked because the dog will know where you went from the crushed grass.

On this note, burying HCl would be a huge waste of time. Not only would you have to spend precious time burying it in which you could be caught, but again the dog will probably ignore it once the scent becomes too strong. Would you continue moving towards an object that stung your nostrils? Of course not.

As far as tracking goes, the most important thing you can do is move on hard ground which will neither hold your scent nor produce one of it's own as you pass. If you have a large distance, you can move in intersecting patterns to create "loops" for the dog to get confused in. They can usually determine where you went eventually, but it can slow them down enough for you to put the extra distance needed to escape.

Finally, it is harder for a dog to track in rainy conditions as your scent washes away fast. As long as you don't leave obvious footprints, moving in wet conditions is advantageous against K9 trackers.

Firaku's method for dealing with a dog attack is standard military doctrine (albeit they advocate the use of a knife tearing into their guts) and is good advice. However, attacking a dog - especially a trained one - can be a very serious offense so if you're going to do so, be sure you can disable the dog and escape before it's handler gets near you.


Hope this helps. Unfortunately, the original dilemma is still unresolved. These ideas are good and all, but they all apply in an escape and evasion scenario where you've already failed the mission.

[Firaku]

Attacking a dog is worst case scenario, and I'd only use it if a dog I didn't know was there caught my by surprise. But yes, by that point you've already failed and all you can do is withdraw from the area.

Anyone thought of using tazers/stun guns? Though I just though of heaps of problems in using them. It can stun a human but would probably stop a dog's heart, then there is its limited range and so on.....

Dealing with dogs is one of the biggest problems in my opinion. I don't think this will be solved anytime soon.

[Anthony Sykes]

Coming from someone who OWNS a tracking dog (and wuvs it)

Pepper Spray. Fuck Yeah.

Basics: When buying, buy one with an SHU with at least 3,000,000, Preferably as high as you can find; this serves two purposes; more pain,and longer lasting

See a dog coming at you? Snap, aim for the nose, go high you get eyes, low you get mouth. Ideally, you will have burst/fog spray, hitting all three....
Center Axis Relock and Quick Kill Shine here, Practice both, love one...
Being tracked? Spray it BEHIND you (otherwise you get a more distinct scent; very VERY bad) Starting at the ground, then zigzagging on up...
Make a false trail, and spray it at the end, and continue on, obeying basic dog E&E Rules (Try to go on roads, throw in false exits (Where you use PS), if in underbrush, run a tangled pattern to tangle up pursuers, and make the path not look like that of a human, but of a forest animal, and do not I repeat DO MOTHERFUCKING NOT run in circles to create setbacks; It's easily seen through and trackers cut to where they think you went, and pick up there stick to sharp jagged edges like a small rabbit or squirrel would make, try and destroy the handlers confidence in the doggeh is THE Commandment of dog E&E, if there is a Tactical Tracking Team, many of you would be fucked, anyone want a writeup on counter+Anti-Tracking???)

If you had to kill a dog Silently, Antifreeze, and a large amount placed in an object in the yard the dog will drink from (they are naturally attracted to it) and it WILL kill them (RIP My cat).

If you do ANY sort of Physical attack on a dog, it will yelp, unless your initials are JR.

EDIT: On that Dog Chaser jaunt; It will NOT (repeat, NOT) Deter or stop a real Guard/Attack dog; IME it will simply piss them off

--Unsung

[Xanatos]

Would metsu-bishi also work on a dog if thrown directle at the snout/face? Metsu-bishi containing salt, onion powder, pepper, paprika, onion seasoning/salt, etc?

[Psychlonic]

If you do ANY sort of Physical attack on a dog, it will yelp, unless your initials are JR.

I think this is the biggest issue that's being overlooked. Not only is this the case, but a dog yelping will draw infinitely more attention than a dog barking. When the dog yelps, the owner will know without a doubt that something is definitely wrong.

[Anthony Sykes]

If you do ANY sort of Physical attack on a dog, it will yelp, unless your initials are JR.

I think this is the biggest issue that's being overlooked. Not only is this the case, but a dog yelping will draw infinitely more attention than a dog barking. When the dog yelps, the owner will know without a doubt that something is definitely wrong.

Exactly. And, dogs=Best Friends. If you heard your best friend yelping in pain, wouldn't you kill the bastard hurting them?

[isfrael]

What about some form of knockout compound made into a homemade smokebomb type incendiary?
Alternately, what about a small battery powered fog machine and a water soluble knockout compound? You would need a mask to traverse the affected area, but seems possible. Most people wont notice smoke or fog at night if its not lit up. Just untested ideas...