Strength

Exchange the techniques and skills needed to walk the shadows. Post your guides and how-tos here.
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Zerg
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Strength

Post by Zerg » Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:06 pm

I know this has been brought up before, but a lot of new members don't dig through old posts and they might offer new perspectives. The forum is also really slow right now.
What do you guys think about the role of functional strength vs. excessive bulk? Or really just physical training, for that matter.
What kinds of regiments do you maintain to keep your body in shape?
Which do you think is more important: muscular strength, or cardiovascular strength?

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Re: Strength

Post by Xanatos » Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:41 pm

Be strong to be useful.

I don't have a strict 'regime' I stick to, I do a bit of MA now & then whenever I can be bothered, including non-combat related exercises such as Kung Fu (the fitness side of the art). Eskrima classes are back on at a nearby gym so I'm going to start attending those again. And of course, opping when I can.

In terms of opping I'd say cardio is more important since you spend a lot of time running from cover to cover and crouch walking. These require a lot of endurance to pull off for longer ops. Of course it never hurts to have muscle, but you typically don't do a lot of heavy lifting on ops.

Now to get into the spirit of things, everyone reading this drop and give me 30.
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Re: Strength

Post by Zerg » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:50 am

Aaaaaah... So we're starting that again. :?

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Re: Strength

Post by Wiseau » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:58 pm

Strength when you can get it, I suppose. If you lift weights or workout, which presumably you do, bear in mind that you make the most progress and gain strength by lifting heavier.

I don't really see much purpose on strength for nightops. If you can do enough pullups to hoist yourself up and over, you have enough strength. If you got yourself in a position where you need strength to get out or get past something, you've done something wrong.

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Re: Strength

Post by Zerg » Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:18 am

I don't really work out in the traditional sense, i.e. lifting weights, but parkour is probably one of the most relevant forms of exercise to opping, for obvious reasons. It is true that having to resort to sheer strength indicates somewhat of a lack of skill; however, the truth is that all oppers are going to do something wrong at some point. A little bit of lean muscle can often make the difference between getting away and getting busted.

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Re: Strength

Post by Xanatos » Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:23 am

If you ever have to punch your way out of a situation your operation is beyond fucked. I wouldn't sacrifice agility for bulk. Of course it never hurts to have strength, but your training for night ops - as you said - should be more agility-focused like Parkour.
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Re: Strength

Post by Ghost » Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:27 am

To be fair, agility and bulk aren't mutually exclusive. To me, The ideal opper would seek to increase strength as much as possible while continuing to maintain speed and agility. Obviously, if you have to choose one, I'd rather go for agility and speed over sheer size. Being bodybuilder huge isn't going to help anyone op, but you can still pack on a good bit of muscle without sacrificing speed. I know guys who are 5'10" and easily 200lbs of pure muscle who can beat me in a sprint every damn time.
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Re: Strength

Post by Woden » Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:58 pm

Strength is defiantly useful however if I had to choose between strength or endurance it would be the latter.

Think about it. Your on a covert op in the middle of nowhere infiltrating an enemy base. There are about 20 odd guards on duty with a few dogs and you just tripped the alarm. What are you going to do? I'm defiantly going to evacuate the area as stealthy and quickly as possible and if spotted strength is unlikely to do me much good. If successful in evacuating the base your going to have to keep on your toes to stay ahead of them guards and there dogs.

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Re: Strength

Post by Teutoni » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:08 am

Well I personally prefer functional strength over excessive bulk. Honestly can't really see the point of excessive bulk but that's not just a NO thing.
No real regiment. Calisthenics are helpful, I hit the gym when I can, and i've been really focusing on my weight lately.
Also I think the answer is both since they are both helpful and you certainly don't have to just have one.
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Re: Strength

Post by Æternaeon » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:18 pm

HULK SMASH! :D

Edit - Seriously though, explosive strength can come in great handy but typical weight lifting is all but useless. BWEs of various types however are invaluable such as climbing rope, jump rope, jumping push-ups, box jumping, etc. For weights, jumping squats will help develop good explosiveness for vaulting a fence statically. Increasing your ability to jump vertically can be the difference between leaping cleanly over a fence that stands taller than you and having to take that extra step of sitting yourself up on it, turning around, and letting yourself fall off from there. Actions like that will really help you appreciate the value of good explosive strength. Balance is also aided by BWEs, and balance is conductive to good stealth.

Also as mentioned, great running cardio is invaluable. I might also add in the value of being able to crawl quickly for vast amounts of time as this can really save your ass. Keep in mind that your day to day movement is not the most stealthy means possible and when it comes time to employ those methods to keep yourself safe, you're going to find that crawling quickly to evade will tire you out quickly - it's something your body just isn't used to doing.
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Re: Strength

Post by theBigHomie » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:15 pm

i've done some reading here and a lot of you advocate using bodyweight only and avoiding weight training. there's not much of that on this thread but in other threads i've found similar sentiments.
this next part is not meant to offend anyone but instead be an honest advisement/outtake. in my personal experience, you are dead wrong. bodyweight exercises have their place. however they will only allow you to get strong up to an extent
if you know how to train properly the benefits of weight training far outweigh any downsides. i am lean and muscular, and far from bulky or ungraceful and yet i routinely find that i am much stronger than very muscular individuals who weigh up to 50 lbs more than me. i have managed to get to this point without sacrificing my agility and have found it extremely valuable. it is true that if you have to fight then your op is blown anyway, however having the skill and strength to fight could mean the difference between getting away unscathed or being seriously wounded and going to prison.

in a physical confrontation against someone who strength trains, those advocating bodyweight exercises alone would be far outmatched. your ability to do 100+ pushups would do absolutely nothing to save you if i laid hands on you EVEN IF YOU ARE LARGER AND HEAVIER THAN ME (unless its like a 40+ lb weight advantage). i am much stronger than the average person but i am by no means the only one around who is strong. it has been my experience that people who dont weight train or hardly weight train have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to these situations. i hear it all the time because i'm in college where many individuals have never been in a fight in their life or have been fighting weak opponents who have no idea how to defend themselves. there are so many individuals who dont weight train and think they are capable of taking on someone far stronger than them just because they are of a similar height and weight. dont fool yourself. weight training enables you to progress further and faster than bodyweight training alone will permit. and this is coming from someone who has trained in grappling and striking styles. having skill alone will not always save you. strength alone is also not the answer. but combine strength and fight training and you are a force to be reckoned with. and it could save your life. it might not have the most carryover to night ops but you never know who will try to rob you, who will try to jump you for being in the wrong neighborhood, or who will force you to take action to defend your family. personally i think its extremely valuable for an operative to have strength to fall back on, should all else fail. i have won many fights/matches against more skilled opponents simply because i was stronger

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Re: Strength

Post by Æternaeon » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:56 pm

While I don't disagree with what you're saying, we're talking strictly in the realm of stealth and avoiding that confrontation in the first place. Yes, weight lifting is important and has its place, but as far as stealth itself goes it's honestly not a priority and the ability to repetitively perform BWEs and maintain good cardio comes first. Experience dictates this, it's more than theory. We can do a show of hands and I'd be surprised if anyone has actually had to fight during an op - I think Psychlonic may be the only exception to this from a story dating back nearly a decade (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and even then that was the only time it has happened that I'm aware of. He came out on top BTW, and during NOPCON I could see why. Dude ain't small.

At any rate, that's one in legion. Don't get me wrong at all, I wholeheartedly agree that the security of being able to defend yourself in hand to hand is a certain "why not?" type of thing that anyone can add. My philosophy here is that good stealth practices and the ability to flee without confrontation are going to keep you safe more often than being able to fight. You can't win them all, and not everyone is going to come at you bare handed, if they even come at you at all. You can't double-leg a bullet.
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Re: Strength

Post by Ghost » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:53 pm

Æternaeon wrote:I'd be surprised if anyone has actually had to fight during an op - I think Psychlonic may be the only exception to this from a story dating back nearly a decade (someone correct me if I'm wrong),
Well, so much for my street cred. I guess most of you guys weren't here when I had my little encounter, but he's not the only one to have to defend himself in an op. Scrouaf also comes to mind, although he's been gone for probably a decade now.

That said, I completely agree with your assessment. We are in a very unique position in that we will almost always have the option to be the "aggressor" if we choose to fight. This means that 99 times out of 100, fighting is the wrong choice altogether.
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Re: Strength

Post by theBigHomie » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:25 pm

Æternaeon wrote:At any rate, that's one in legion. Don't get me wrong at all, I wholeheartedly agree that the security of being able to defend yourself in hand to hand is a certain "why not?" type of thing that anyone can add. My philosophy here is that good stealth practices and the ability to flee without confrontation are going to keep you safe more often than being able to fight. You can't win them all, and not everyone is going to come at you bare handed, if they even come at you at all. You can't double-leg a bullet.
yea i understand stealth is important to what you guys do. probably moreso to you than to me. obviously you can't win all encounters but nowhere did i say to engage an opponent with a firearm, as your last sentence implies. however if you agreed with me, why would you add in those last two sentences where you make it sound like i'm advocating that you should be confronting someone at every opportunity. you also imply that being stealthy far outweighs the benefits of being strong. i never said there was anything wrong with being stealthy. what i'm saying is, why cant you have both. it is perfectly possible to get strong as fucc without sacrificing your ability to be stealthy. just like you can't double-leg a bullet, you can't necessarily always outrun an angry black man
also. my primary message in my first post on this thread is meant to encourage people to educate themselves on the benefits of strength training and add it into their routines rather than total reliance on bodyweight exercises that quickly reach a point of diminishing returns. this is the part of your first post that i am disagreeing with
nowhere in there did i say to take dbol and put on 60 lbs of muscle and resemble branch warren. also you dont just accidentally put on so much muscle that it impedes your ability to move and your stealth. that takes a long time to do. if you strength train as A PART of your training regimen and still work on the rest of the shit that keeps you fast, nimble, and flexible, then you should encounter no problems

to go further into detail think of it this way. you can become a strong mother fucker by training in the squat, deadlift, benchpress, weighted pullups, bent rows, and overhead press. but if you've never thrown a punch in your life and you've never seen anyone throw a punch, then when it comes time to punch someone you will fucking suck at it. this is why bodybuilders have a reputation for being shitty fighters. because theyre not fighters. they train both compound and isolation exercises for the sake of getting better at these exercises with the goal of just achieving overall muscular hypertrophy. they dont do much else. they dont train to be flexible, they dont train to be able to do backflips, or run fast, or parkour. they train ONLY TO GET BIGGER AND STRONGER similarly, powerlifters train ONLY TO BECOME STRONGER AT THE BIG 3 LIFTS(benchpress,squat, deadlift). these are the niggas who hold world records in the worlds heaviest deadlift, benchpress, and squat. so no one can say that they arent strong as FUAAAAAARK. but do you think a powerlifter who's strong as hell would necessarily be a good fighter? no. but does that mean that having insane strength wouldnt support a fighter?
Does that mean that a boxer would never train in exercises that bodybuilders or powerlifters use? no. once again you're writing under the assumption that all weight training will make you slower, inflexible, and cumbersome because you'll become musclebound. and you're also assuming that all weight training is bodybuilding. theres a reason why professional athletes have weight training as part of their training regimen. because they practice their sport as well as develop their strength. if you develop your strength as well as your skill in whatever it is you compete in then your strength can support you in what you need to do. to reiterate, theres a difference between gaining strength and practicing movement patterns so that your body can learn to apply your strength. i just used fighting as an example, however theres no reason that having strength couldn't apply to anything you'd have to do on an op. and theres no reason to believe that being stronger would impede your ability to successfully complete an op

so once again....its worth it.

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Re: Strength

Post by Æternaeon » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:04 am

Ghost wrote: Well, so much for my street cred. I guess most of you guys weren't here when I had my little encounter, but he's not the only one to have to defend himself in an op. Scrouaf also comes to mind, although he's been gone for probably a decade now.
When was all of this? I honestly don't remember, now I'm curious. :?:
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Re: Strength

Post by Ghost » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:54 am

My encounter was either 2006 or 2007, Scrouaf's was whenever all those riots were happening in France around the same timeframe. I'll look around and see if I can dig up his post later, it was a very interesting story.

As for me, I was moving past a house that was having a party, cars parked all down the side of the road. There wasn't much cover in the area so I was close to them, using them as cover as I jogged quietly through their shadows. I must have missed someone on their porch when I scanned the area, because some drunk guy noticed me and managed to get pretty close before I noticed him. He probably thought I was car shopping, which was pretty ironic because I wasn't that night. Anyway, by the time I heard movement on the other side of the cars, I stopped and crouched further into the shadow of the vehicle I was next to, hoping that I hadn't been noticed. He stepped out from between the cars right next to me though, very much aware of me and holding a pocket knife. Fight or flight triggered, I got fight, and went to draw my knife. He never said a word, just lunged at me and tried to stab me. I twisted to the side and barely got scratched, also managed to cut his forearm coming out of my draw. He jerked back, I hit him in the head, then turned tail as he staggered and ran. I made it very quickly back to Sa'Kage's house, and he patched me up using bourbon to clean the small cut I had. I crashed pretty quickly after that, I guess due to the affects of the adrenaline wearing off. The whole thing sounds a lot longer than it actually was, it happened very fast and must have been over in several seconds. I kept an eye on the news in the following days, and never heard anything about it, nor read about it in the paper.

Lessons learned: double check before crossing an exposed area, and always bring your partner if you have one. I got pretty lucky, but anyone can see how easy it would have been to end up dead.
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Re: Strength

Post by Æternaeon » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:40 pm

Oh shit I remember that now, can't believe I forgot about it. I don't think I ever heard the full story though, so that's really interesting.

Would certainly be interested in the Scrouaf tale if you find it. I'm sitting here trying to recall and it doesn't sound familiar. Not that I don't believe you, just can't remember it so maybe I never heard it in the first place.
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Re: Strength

Post by Ghost » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:06 pm

Well, I can't find it. He only has two posts here on the site, so I'm thinking his story must be from 2005/2006 or so. I don't remember enough details to do his story justice, but I'll paraphrase just so you guys get the idea. This one takes the cake in my book as "most hardcore opping encounter".

Now, Scrouaf was a pretty big guy, and his entry tool of choice was a long crowbar. It was also his weapon of choice, and he had rigged up a back scabbard for this thing, as if it was a sword. Anyway, the people in his city in France were rioting for whatever reason, so he decided it would be a great night to go out for an op, seeing as police response times were insanely slow. He heads out, and is opping in a relatively urban area, when he's confronted by three rioters in an alleyway. Two were either unarmed or had only melee weapons, but the third has a handgun. They're trying to rob him, but they've VERY close, especially the guy with the pistol. Scrouaf reaches up over his shoulder, draws his crowbar, and brings it down as hard as he can right on the guy's wrist. The rioter drops the pistol, Scrouaf proceeds to kick his ass, and his friends either run away or get their asses kicked too. After all is said and done, there is at least one unconscious rioter laying on the ground, and our friend got himself a nice new handgun.
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Re: Strength

Post by Xanatos » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:34 am

It's his own damn fault, so no sympathy for the gunslinger.
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Re: Strength

Post by Æternaeon » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:47 am

A risky gambit, glad it went well for him. Wonder whatever became of him.
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Re: Strength

Post by Xanatos » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:47 pm

He decided to try mugging someone in an alleyway since he had a new pistol. Unfortunately, they also had a crowbar.

Legends say that handgun is still in circulation, looking for its master.
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Re: Strength

Post by Lynx » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:16 pm

Ghost wrote:Well, I can't find it. He only has two posts here on the site, so I'm thinking his story must be from 2005/2006 or so. I don't remember enough details to do his story justice, but I'll paraphrase just so you guys get the idea. This one takes the cake in my book as "most hardcore opping encounter".

Now, Scrouaf was a pretty big guy, and his entry tool of choice was a long crowbar. It was also his weapon of choice, and he had rigged up a back scabbard for this thing, as if it was a sword. Anyway, the people in his city in France were rioting for whatever reason, so he decided it would be a great night to go out for an op, seeing as police response times were insanely slow. He heads out, and is opping in a relatively urban area, when he's confronted by three rioters in an alleyway. Two were either unarmed or had only melee weapons, but the third has a handgun. They're trying to rob him, but they've VERY close, especially the guy with the pistol. Scrouaf reaches up over his shoulder, draws his crowbar, and brings it down as hard as he can right on the guy's wrist. The rioter drops the pistol, Scrouaf proceeds to kick his ass, and his friends either run away or get their asses kicked too. After all is said and done, there is at least one unconscious rioter laying on the ground, and our friend got himself a nice new handgun.
Does Scruff even lift?
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Re: Strength

Post by Anthony Sykes » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:39 pm

Oldish topic, but if you take the time to do a solid barbell training regime like Starting Strength or StrongLifts it will greatly increase your cardio ability.

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Re: Strength

Post by Lynx » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:09 am

Anthony Sykes wrote:Oldish topic, but if you take the time to do a solid barbell training regime like Starting Strength or StrongLifts it will greatly increase your cardio ability.
Supposedly the valsalva maneuver increases your cardio, right?
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Re: Strength

Post by Anthony Sykes » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:29 pm

Lynx wrote:
Supposedly the valsalva maneuver increases your cardio, right?
Supposedly. You should be using that when doing squats, many people do it naturally when squatting heavier weights.
I meant more that weight lifting trains the anaerobic system, especially when doing heavy weight sets with low reps, like a 5x5 or 3x5. Not to mention supplementing with creatine like many lifters do will have a massive positive impact on lifting and anaerobics. I have no problem running ~3 miles, or hiking 5 miles through difficult terrain with a pack. I haven't run more then 100yds for exercise in years.

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Re: Strength

Post by Lynx » Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:35 pm

Anthony Sykes wrote:
Lynx wrote:
Supposedly the valsalva maneuver increases your cardio, right?
Supposedly. You should be using that when doing squats, many people do it naturally when squatting heavier weights.
I meant more that weight lifting trains the anaerobic system, especially when doing heavy weight sets with low reps, like a 5x5 or 3x5. Not to mention supplementing with creatine like many lifters do will have a massive positive impact on lifting and anaerobics. I have no problem running ~3 miles, or hiking 5 miles through difficult terrain with a pack. I haven't run more then 100yds for exercise in years.
Wait. Cardio kills gains, and SL helps with cardio, therefore SL = nogains.

Also, here's a handy chart
1-5 reps Stength
6-7 reps does nothing
8-12 reps for maximum Muscle
12+ reps is cardio


Going to try a 6 day split + GOMAD.
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Re: Strength

Post by Anthony Sykes » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:54 pm

"Wait. Cardio kills gains, and SL helps with cardio, therefore SL = nogains."

Broscience go home. Strength is a large function in anaerobic cardio, and anaerobic is a large function is long distance cardio. Also, what happens if you get 6-7 reps? Your muscles don't get worked? Last I check Vince Girondo used a 6x6 for aesthetic training.

And avoid the brosplits if you want to be strong.
Only do GOMAD if you're the spookiest of hungry skeletons, otherwise you'll gain a lot of fat. At least read Rippetoes literature before doing it.

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Re: Strength

Post by Lynx » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:35 pm

Anthony Sykes wrote:"Wait. Cardio kills gains, and SL helps with cardio, therefore SL = nogains."

Broscience go home. Strength is a large function in anaerobic cardio, and anaerobic is a large function is long distance cardio. Also, what happens if you get 6-7 reps? Your muscles don't get worked? Last I check Vince Girondo used a 6x6 for aesthetic training.

And avoid the brosplits if you want to be strong.
Only do GOMAD if you're the spookiest of hungry skeletons, otherwise you'll gain a lot of fat. At least read Rippetoes literature before doing it.
SS only trains 3x a week, and you get gains. What if you train 6x a week? Also, can I round my back on Deadlifts?
6-7 reps means that you miss your anabolic window, either to hard (5/8 reps) or go home.
How long do I have to lift to achieve gf mode? Does creatine fix ED? GOMAD helps tone muscles?

Now, now, for serious.

I read an article from al Kavaldo that anything over 2 sets is mostly used for beginners who need to learn the movement. I've been aiming for increasing my reps in 3 sets my entire life, but should I instead do 2 sets with more emphasis on added resistance once I've reached a certain amount of reps?
Basically, is 3x8 necessary? Would it work with 2x12 instead? I'm talking about calisthenics, don't have access to weights right now other than my 20kg dumbbell (use it as weight for pullups). Yes, your body can't tell the difference between different kinds of resistance, but with the amount of small muscles involved during pullups... Not as strenuous as a 1rm Deadlift. Which is best? Stick to traditional or try Kavaldo's way for a while? Higher sets with lower reps, or lower sets with higher reps?
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Re: Strength

Post by Anthony Sykes » Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:17 pm

Lynx wrote:
Anthony Sykes wrote:"Wait. Cardio kills gains, and SL helps with cardio, therefore SL = nogains."

Broscience go home. Strength is a large function in anaerobic cardio, and anaerobic is a large function is long distance cardio. Also, what happens if you get 6-7 reps? Your muscles don't get worked? Last I check Vince Girondo used a 6x6 for aesthetic training.

And avoid the brosplits if you want to be strong.
Only do GOMAD if you're the spookiest of hungry skeletons, otherwise you'll gain a lot of fat. At least read Rippetoes literature before doing it.
SS only trains 3x a week, and you get gains. What if you train 6x a week? Also, can I round my back on Deadlifts?
6-7 reps means that you miss your anabolic window, either to hard (5/8 reps) or go home.
How long do I have to lift to achieve gf mode? Does creatine fix ED? GOMAD helps tone muscles?

Now, now, for serious.

I read an article from al Kavaldo that anything over 2 sets is mostly used for beginners who need to learn the movement. I've been aiming for increasing my reps in 3 sets my entire life, but should I instead do 2 sets with more emphasis on added resistance once I've reached a certain amount of reps?
Basically, is 3x8 necessary? Would it work with 2x12 instead? I'm talking about calisthenics, don't have access to weights right now other than my 20kg dumbbell (use it as weight for pullups). Yes, your body can't tell the difference between different kinds of resistance, but with the amount of small muscles involved during pullups... Not as strenuous as a 1rm Deadlift. Which is best? Stick to traditional or try Kavaldo's way for a while? Higher sets with lower reps, or lower sets with higher reps?
I had a minor aneurism reading the first part of that post, I'm glad it was a joke.
To be honest I don't know too much about high rep (8+) rep training, but I did do Convict Conditioning, which is a book by Kavadlo about getting strong as hell through bodyweight only exercises. I would definitely try Kavadlo's method.

Anthony Sykes
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Re: Strength

Post by Anthony Sykes » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:27 pm

I found your previous post as a chart.
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Xanatos
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Re: Strength

Post by Xanatos » Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:23 pm

Well, the man went through the trouble of drawing a graph. I guess it's legit.
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