Rough area

[inthedark]

It feels like it's been forever since I posted here. :|
Alright so anyway, I want to start doing more ops. Especially since its summer now and I don't have to worry about school in the morning. Problem is, i live in a kind've rough neighborhood.
I'm a little hesitant to go on ops. I really don't wanna be shot at or robbed on an op. So what do I do??

[Xanatos]

Don't let firearm ownership intimidate you, instead use it as motivation to remain undetected.

There is a difference between those who feel safest in the light and those who feel safest in the dark.

In the vast majority of cases, violence is often between people who already know and hate one another. The chances of you getting jumped & beaten by a stranger hanging around a corner are very little, and if you maintain stealth and move about in a cautious manner then those chances whittle down to practically zero.

If you were a mugger where would you most likely find a victim to rob: walking around a brightly lit street in plain sight, or stalking through the shadows in somebody's backyard?

[Ysidro]

No need to worry if they can't see you.

[AnOtherShadow]

If you were a mugger where would you most likely find a victim to rob: walking around a brightly lit street in plain sight, or stalking through the shadows in somebody's backyard?

Except that muggers do wait for people in the dark spots, and its the people who own the backyard you're stalking through you should be worrying about.
Easy solution: Any lame brain can avoid detection in the dark. Challenge yourself while protecting yourself, and go out in daylight. The nature of the game changes a bit, but most of my best adventures took place in broad daylight, under otherwise conspicuously ridiculous circumstances.
Really, 8 high school teens climbing fences, dashing through yards, trekking up drainage/irrigation ditches at 3pm in the afternoon in the middle of the suburbs, all to get out of a school pep rally. And no one noticed because they weren't looking for that kind of trouble on a Friday afternoon.

[inthedark]

Okay so I'm hearing a resounding: "Stay hidden"

Also Xanatos, the nature of my neighborhood is random acts of violence. If someone did see me out in an alley at 2:00 in the morning, then chances are they would jump/mug me :/
I mean not to long ago me and my brother were held up at GP. Just cus we looked like "easy targets"

[Lucian Neo]

Brother, I know how it is to live in a rough area, but don't let that stop you from doing night ops. If your afraid of muggers, or someone who might / will hurt or kill you, carry some self defense. Any thing from a tazer to a small fire arm. Tazers, Mace, Night sticks (Police Baton) All work great for self defense. You can go online to http://www.trueswords.com This website has great, reliable self-defense weapons. Here is the one I personally carry everywhere I go because of its "hidden in plain sight" design, it's compact and light, and overall easy to use as well as effective.

http://www.trueswords.com/belt-knife-se ... -4545.html

This is a cheap and affordable price for a great "hidden in plain sight" self defense weapon. But if your going to pull a weapon you need to be prepared to use it. Remember, if the cops get involved you were only acting in self-defense. Batons work and tazers work just as well, And they give you enough time to get away from your would-be attacker. You can also take self-defense classes, or find some online videos (Such a Systema, Sorry If I misspelled that) And once you have your self-defense weapon of choice, you need to train regularly, start out slow and safe and work your way up to real-speed.

You should still keep to the shadows, and remember, the goal is to get in and out unnoticed.

I hope this information helped!

[Neurotic Anomaly]

I would have to agree with Lucian here.
If you plan to run an op into a dangerous area such as the one you described above, then you should be prepared and willing to protect yourself, possibly through force if escape is not an option.
Obviously, as an opper, your main priority will be to break contact and get away, but sometimes this means going through your attacker(s).

Some advice on the psychology of a criminal, I'll capitalize on what Xanatos originally wrote. Most street attacks are indeed random acts of violence, however most criminals are very meticulous and pick who they go after. People who are tuned out to their enviromnent and people who look like they can't defend themselves are potential targets for a roving criminal. Clothing is also a factor. People who where revealing clothing or anything that singles them out as "easy" targets are the ones who may find themselves attacked.
A criminal looking for a couple bucks will tend to not go after someone who is dressed like Seal Team 6 and jumping over fences and scaling walls. Because obviously that person would be a challenge and make a commotion.
Even if you aren't suited up in gear. Maybe you're an average person walking down a sidewalk at night. If you walk with good posture and show that you have an awareness around you and know what's happening, most would-be criminals will stray away and seek someone easier.

But back to Lucian. Yes, I suggest looking into Self Defense. I believe that learning how to protect one's self in a violent altercation is a responsibility, especially for the opper. So if you plan doing serious ops, and this surely classifies, get some training and equipment.

[Ghost]

Another vote for learning some basic self defense skills. If you choose to carry a weapon, make sure you invest the time into learning how to use it, and then practice enough to stay proficient. Just carrying a knife or a baton isn't enough, because an experienced fighter will likely just disarm you/use your own weapon on you. Training turns your weapons from a possible hazard to yourself into a dangerous asset you can deploy effectively.

[Epic]

Keep a long ranged weapon with you, and learn how to bare-knuckle fight.

[Xanatos]

If by "ranged weapon" you mean 'firearm', no. Bad idea. They're loud, messy and often not worth it. Bringing a firearm on a night op is like bringing a bazooka to a knife fight.

[Ghost]

Agreed with Xanatos, any situation that would require use of firearms isn't one you're going to be posting about on this board. Going out on an op with a firearm is going out with the mentality "I may have to kill a person during my op tonight". The number of ops where that would be worth it are far and few between, let alone stupidly dangerous for someone without the proper training.

Something like a sling, or slingshot, on the other hand, can be very effective opping tools for dealing with things like problematic wildlife.

[joshvillen]

How about a cross bow then, it's quiet, doesn't leave much of a trace, and can double as a really long knife for cqb, hahaha

[Lucian Neo]

How about a cross bow then, it's quiet, doesn't leave much of a trace, and can double as a really long knife for cqb, hahaha

And also kills people. I have made my own bow and cross bow. Crossbows are heavy and bulky and will easily tire you. And with it being bulky it would be highly in-practical.

Being a Night Oper, You shouldn't need to have a long range self defense weapon. You should be hidden anyway. But just for the hell of it I'll give you a few suggestions.

If you are going to look for a more practical self defense weapon BB Guns are a good option.
http://www.amazon.com/Crosman-C31-air-p ... 957&sr=8-5
BB guns don't usually kill. But they hurt and will probably deter any would be attacker. The above link is just a cheap Co2 BB gun that I found on Amazon. There are better ones that you can go look for, the above is just an example.

BB guns are also easy to ditch if you are stopped and detained by a police officer. You wouldn't want to be caught in the middle of the night in what would look like what a robber would wear, and a potential Firearm. That's the way a police officer is going to see it. So keep in mind if you buy something like this, make sure you can easily ditch it. You can always go back for it later.

[Xanatos]

BBs? Not this again...

[joshvillen]

How about a cross bow then, it's quiet, doesn't leave much of a trace, and can double as a really long knife for cqb, hahaha

And also kills people. I have made my own bow and cross bow. Crossbows are heavy and bulky and will easily tire you. And with it being bulky it would be highly in-practical.

Being a Night Oper, You shouldn't need to have a long range self defense weapon. You should be hidden anyway. But just for the hell of it I'll give you a few suggestions.

If you are going to look for a more practical self defense weapon BB Guns are a good option.
http://www.amazon.com/Crosman-C31-air-p ... 957&sr=8-5
BB guns don't usually kill. But they hurt and will probably deter any would be attacker. The above link is just a cheap Co2 BB gun that I found on Amazon. There are better ones that you can go look for, the above is just an example.

BB guns are also easy to ditch if you are stopped and detained by a police officer. You wouldn't want to be caught in the middle of the night in what would look like what a robber would wear, and a potential Firearm. That's the way a police officer is going to see it. So keep in mind if you buy something like this, make sure you can easily ditch it. You can always go back for it later.

My comment was amusing at best, I am not being serious considering the "type" of opers who post here but some of use do in fact like to get "dirty" and bb guns don't really cover that. If your biggest concern is what a police officer is going to think of your loadout than were not talking about the same kind of op.

[Ghost]

Bringing a bb gun is a spectacularly bad idea, better to stick with defensive weapons or tools such as spray, batons, large maglites, ect. The second you pull out anything resembling a gun, you escalate a fight up into the "life or death" area. Yes, there is a chance they will see it and flee, but what if they see you pulling it out, and draw down on you with a real firearm? Yours isn't real, so it wont be able to keep them from pulling the trigger. Then you're dead, and you've given them the legal justification kill you. Any serious attacker won't be deterred by stinging BBs, when a baton or pepper spay might have been able to give you the opportunity to escape.

Edit: Also, moving topic to The Art of Night Ops, since it's more of an advice sharing thread than anything else.

[Teutoni]

If you are able to deter the person then they weren't exactly committed and not the ones to really be afraid of. Which deterrence is all you can hope for with a bb gun. If your attacker is the committed type you may find yourself in a life or death situation. A bb gun will be useless here too. There are absolutely no good reasons to bring one, a lot of other things can do the job of deterrence and still function as a weapon.

[Urgon]

AVE...

1. NO GUNS OR GUN-SHAPED OBJECTS! Some police officers tend to shoot first, and then ask questions...
2. Change your act on street. If you just look and act like you own the street and the night, no one would come close to you. Potential victims look and act weak. They have low self-esteem, and thus are easy targets. We can sense this on a subconscious level. Just start looking confident and increase in self-esteem will follow altering your behavior...
3. Get a knife and learn using it in self-defense. Learn basic moves and throws of Aikido. Watch on youtube Bas Rutten, Start training with your brother/friend/cow-orker. Learn maps of weak points on human body, and how to attack them...
4. Don't be afraid to harm others, who would harm you. Most people won't use their full force, because they don't want to harm other people. Even when they deserve to be hurt...
5. When you can, AVOID fighting at all costs! And DON'T provoke fight on your own! Fight is always a risk...
6. If you are attacked by group, either flee or punch the leader and then flee...

[Illusion]

The best post I think was Lucian Neo's first one, about different kinds of self defence weapons - and bearing in mind what Therin said; being able to use them effectively.

Additionally, training makes you confident, confidence is often enough to stop any trouble before it occurs. Not always, but often..

I also carry a Kubotan around with me; legally a grey spot here recently - but I know Smith and Wesson do a Kubotan flashlight which changes the legality majorly! I have a flat ended one - however you can get spiked ones, which I'm not too keen on the idea of; and ones with protusions to poke through your fingers if you make a fist. They can be used to harden your fist (ala the old roll of pennies idea), or for their intended use. There are numerous documents and official guides on how to use them; they will even stop you losing your keys! Well worth the few dollars they cost.

How about a cross bow then, it's quiet, doesn't leave much of a trace, and can double as a really long knife for cqb, hahaha

And also kills people. I have made my own bow and cross bow. Crossbows are heavy and bulky and will easily tire you. And with it being bulky it would be highly in-practical.

Being a Night Oper, You shouldn't need to have a long range self defense weapon. You should be hidden anyway. But just for the hell of it I'll give you a few suggestions.
If you are going to look for a more practical self defense weapon BB Guns are a good option.
http://www.amazon.com/Crosman-C31-air-p ... 957&sr=8-5
BB guns don't usually kill. But they hurt and will probably deter any would be attacker. The above link is just a cheap Co2 BB gun that I found on Amazon. There are better ones that you can go look for, the above is just an example.

BB guns are also easy to ditch if you are stopped and detained by a police officer. You wouldn't want to be caught in the middle of the night in what would look like what a robber would wear, and a potential Firearm. That's the way a police officer is going to see it. So keep in mind if you buy something like this, make sure you can easily ditch it. You can always go back for it later.

BBs? Not this again...

As Xanatos has pointed out, this has been covered and generally decided it wasn't a good idea - that thread however, is an example of how not to post in the extreme! Also as discussed here, it's pretty much giving someone legal justification to use lethal force - which puts you in the shit for trying to just defend yourself.

My comment was amusing at best, I am not being serious considering the "type" of opers who post here but some of use do in fact like to get "dirty" and bb guns don't really cover that. If your biggest concern is what a police officer is going to think of your loadout than were not talking about the same kind of op.

Ermm.. I'm not sure where to even begin with that statement.

a) Night-Ops covers anything stealth based at night - just look at the Dare Ops for instance. So yes, concern about what a LEO will make of your posessions is a very good concern, and a reason why I advocate people looking at their local laws; to be prepared to argue, to work ways around and so on.

b) Following on from that, you could be the biggest bad-ass doing the toughest thing in the world - you could cover your tracks like a boss and there could be no evidence; then you get stopped by an officer. Uh oh, you have something thats legally questionable on you - you're in the shit despite there being no evidence regarding your main activity. Often, the punishment for having a prohibited item is more severe than your main objective. (We're talking possible time inside at one end of the scale, a conviction at the minimum - good luck if you plan to have a job where you need a squeeky clean record; like I know some people want (like myself)) Well done, you've essentially got away scot free - but been pwned on a charge regarding something stupid.

c) If you're talking about a different kind of op then why bother posting that; it would presumably be quite clear that there is nothing in common with what you're prepared to do - therefore just don't comment. There's no need to turn something into a veiled pissing contest.

The simple fact of the matter is that regardless of your activities, you're risking charges that you cannot beat (as all the evidence they require will be on you) if you're caught with items in your posession that are prohibited.

This ranges from "burglary tools" (ala "Going Equiped") to self-defense items. Speaking in reality, these are often a grey area - unavoidable and worth a fight. There's horror stories of even maglites being enough to get people in trouble - but these are the exception, not the rule. A lot of things are down to the discretion of the officer you see, and their interpretation of what you have.

[joshvillen]

The best post I think was Lucian Neo's first one, about different kinds of self defence weapons - and bearing in mind what Therin said; being able to use them effectively.

Additionally, training makes you confident, confidence is often enough to stop any trouble before it occurs. Not always, but often..

I also carry a Kubotan around with me; legally a grey spot here recently - but I know Smith and Wesson do a Kubotan flashlight which changes the legality majorly! I have a flat ended one - however you can get spiked ones, which I'm not too keen on the idea of; and ones with protusions to poke through your fingers if you make a fist. They can be used to harden your fist (ala the old roll of pennies idea), or for their intended use. There are numerous documents and official guides on how to use them; they will even stop you losing your keys! Well worth the few dollars they cost.

How about a cross bow then, it's quiet, doesn't leave much of a trace, and can double as a really long knife for cqb, hahaha

And also kills people. I have made my own bow and cross bow. Crossbows are heavy and bulky and will easily tire you. And with it being bulky it would be highly in-practical.

Being a Night Oper, You shouldn't need to have a long range self defense weapon. You should be hidden anyway. But just for the hell of it I'll give you a few suggestions.
If you are going to look for a more practical self defense weapon BB Guns are a good option.
http://www.amazon.com/Crosman-C31-air-p ... 957&sr=8-5
BB guns don't usually kill. But they hurt and will probably deter any would be attacker. The above link is just a cheap Co2 BB gun that I found on Amazon. There are better ones that you can go look for, the above is just an example.

BB guns are also easy to ditch if you are stopped and detained by a police officer. You wouldn't want to be caught in the middle of the night in what would look like what a robber would wear, and a potential Firearm. That's the way a police officer is going to see it. So keep in mind if you buy something like this, make sure you can easily ditch it. You can always go back for it later.

[url=http://night-ops.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1108]BBs?[/code] Not this again...

As Xanatos has pointed out, this has been covered and generally decided it wasn't a good idea - that thread however, is an example of how not to post in the extreme! Also as discussed here, it's pretty much giving someone legal justification to use lethal force - which puts you in the shit for trying to just defend yourself.

My comment was amusing at best, I am not being serious considering the "type" of opers who post here but some of use do in fact like to get "dirty" and bb guns don't really cover that. If your biggest concern is what a police officer is going to think of your loadout than were not talking about the same kind of op.

Ermm.. I'm not sure where to even begin with that statement.

a) Night-Ops covers anything stealth based at night - just look at the Dare Ops for instance. So yes, concern about what a LEO will make of your posessions is a very good concern, and a reason why I advocate people looking at their local laws; to be prepared to argue, to work ways around and so on.

b) Following on from that, you could be the biggest bad-ass doing the toughest thing in the world - you could cover your tracks like a boss and there could be no evidence; then you get stopped by an officer. Uh oh, you have something thats legally questionable on you - you're in the shit despite there being no evidence regarding your main activity. Often, the punishment for having a prohibited item is more severe than your main objective. (We're talking possible time inside at one end of the scale, a conviction at the minimum - good luck if you plan to have a job where you need a squeeky clean record; like I know some people want (like myself)) Well done, you've essentially got away scot free - but been pwned on a charge regarding something stupid.

c) If you're talking about a different kind of op then why bother posting that; it would presumably be quite clear that there is nothing in common with what you're prepared to do - therefore just don't comment. There's no need to turn something into a veiled pissing contest.

The simple fact of the matter is that regardless of your activities, you're risking charges that you cannot beat (as all the evidence they require will be on you) if you're caught with items in your posession that are prohibited.

This ranges from "burglary tools" (ala "Going Equiped") to self-defense items. Speaking in reality, these are often a grey area - unavoidable and worth a fight. There's horror stories of even maglites being enough to get people in trouble - but these are the exception, not the rule. A lot of things are down to the discretion of the officer you see, and their interpretation of what you have.

"Also Xanatos, the nature of my neighborhood is random acts of violence. If someone did see me out in an alley at 2:00 in the morning, then chances are they would jump/mug me :/
I mean not to long ago me and my brother were held up at GP. Just cus we looked like "easy targets" Inthedark

The question never had anything to do with the implications of being caught with a weapon but how he should protect himself from being another victim. He's already had a gun pointed at him and knows what it's like to be in a life or death situation. Obviously he didn't enjoy it and doesn't want it to happen again. In that scenario "one where you know there is a good chance of being mugged or shot" your thoughts shouldn't be about legality, they should be about survival.

I know what it's like to be in your position where you're confronted by leo's and anything and everything will be used against you, if you're lucky you stash of all of your gear and get nothing more than a trespassing charge, others aren't so lucky. We are all playing a losing game, some of us feel more comfortable with the risks involved while others limit their gear options due to the likelihood of severe punishment. Given his situation though I find it foolish to believe you wont need any type of serious protection. Victory loves preperation and to be prepared you need the right equipment.

[Illusion]

The question never had anything to do with the implications of being caught with a weapon but how he should protect himself from being another victim. He's already had a gun pointed at him and knows what it's like to be in a life or death situation. Obviously he didn't enjoy it and doesn't want it to happen again. In that scenario "one where you know there is a good chance of being mugged or shot" your thoughts shouldn't be about legality, they should be about survival.

I know what it's like to be in your position where you're confronted by leo's and anything and everything will be used against you, if you're lucky you stash of all of your gear and get nothing more than a trespassing charge, others aren't so lucky. We are all playing a losing game, some of us feel more comfortable with the risks involved while others limit their gear options due to the likelihood of severe punishment. Given his situation though I find it foolish to believe you wont need any type of serious protection. Victory loves preperation and to be prepared you need the right equipment.

Apologies, as you quoted Lucian Neo, not the OP, and it was Lucian Neo that had mentioned LEO - I took it as a response to LN directly, Hence why I figured it was a bit patronising and just a thinly veiled patronising attempt at saying "I do more hardcore ops than you!" - alas, you have a very good point.

You've got to assess the risks of not carrying protection with the risks of carrying protection; and try and find a suitable medium ground that you're comfortable with. Naturally the variables that come in to play are the socio-geographic features of his area, the motives and abilities of potential attackers, the legalities of different options, training, fitness and ability. Without fully knowing these it's really hard to tell. For me it would be something like this:

Socio-Geographic Features: Varies between two polar opposites; from very wealthy areas with private security just patrolling residential roads, to inner city ones where stabbings and shootings are far from rare.

Motives and Abilities of Potential Attackers:
*Opportunistic Drunks - No co-ordination, emotionally unstable, may have a glass bottle.. etc No real motive.
*Tramps - Generally sociable if you approach things right, offer them a cigarette, engage conversation.. Possible financial motive.
*Crackheads and Druggies - Think tramps without the power of conversation or reasoning
*Petty wannabe gangsters - Most likely going to be groups, have knives at least - Many motives; peer pressure, reputation, just being general cunts
*Actual gangs ^The above on steroids^

Legalities of Potential Options:
*Firearms are a big no no.
*At most a decent knife, cheap enough to throw - expensive enough to use: illegal if over 3 inches.
*Small kubotan to strike with, just to give a blow enough to extract yourself from the situation, cheap and disposable: need to be flat ended, in most circumstances an officer will deem it illegal.
*Flashlight with assault head - good for striking, and like a kubotan - for use prior to extraction: legal.

Training:
- jiu jitsu - very little, trained years ago
- taekwondo - same as above really
- krav maga - just got the membership to a gym, so useless at the moment
- boxing - can throw a few decent punches, have the stance, know enough for a decent defence
- kubaton - have read all the training materials but haven't had too much time to practice with an actual partner

Fitness:
- Good at running and sprinting
- Decent strength

From the above it would be clear that although I face all kinds of risks, I would be safest avoiding confrontation - having a decent level of situational awareness and deciding between a knife and a kubotan depending on where I intend to go. I'd need to train a bit more to understand exactly how to use these tools, but above all, they would be the worst case scenario as I should be able to deal with lesser threats without the aid of them.

Thats how I make choices, your experience may vary, It's pretty much the same decision process I use all the time, in employment and study too. Break down the problem into every variable, consider every possible value for those variables, and then decide from there. The fact is however, whilst you can't mitigate every risk - you can minimise those that you are vulnerable too.

[joshvillen]

I only have firearm training so my bias could be as simple as that. However, regardless of how much hand to hand training I recieve over the years I wouldn't mess around with someone wielding a knife let alone pointing a gun at me. I've been in this type of situation where I did everything I could not to hurt the person too badly but....I will never do that again, next time there won't be any hesitation to do whatever must be done to get away.

I am sure most people can relate to you break down and assessment of planning. Most of my planning invovles the target area alone. I make sure I know the surrounding area better than anyone that might be tracking me, regardless of how much recon and dry runs I have to do. Obviously I make note of where commercial properties end and residential areas begin and what type of people hang around at which hours of the night but my biggest focus is how I can move around the enviroment I am working in.