Atacs Ghost

[spartan_ninja45]

Thinking about purchasing a full set of Atacs Ghost. I'm not very knowledgeable about camouflage though so I'd love some input. All I know is the color grey is very effective in the kinds of environments I'm opping in. I usually wear solid grey sweats, grey mask and hat, gloves and even grey shoes and my opping buddies have told me I completely disappear at about 15 ft away. But I've been wanting to upgrade to some actual camo clothing. Would this be a good option in a mix of urban and woodland settings? I'd love to hear your thoughts, thanks!

https://store.tactical-performance.com/ ... ghost.html

[Psychlonic]

I like ATACS as an overall pattern concept, but this specifically seems a bit light in the pictures. A few shades darker might be ideal, as I see in their LE or LE-X patterns. Ghost might be acceptable in heavy concrete urban environments but for your overall versatility I'd go a bit darker. LE-X looks like the good middle ground here. It might also be worth looking up reviews to see if and how it fades over time, as that Ghost lightening up a little would really hurt it.

I've had great success with more typical subdued urban digital in the past as a universal night time pattern for what it's worth. It started out dark like the LE and eventually faded to be more like the LE-X, where it was still effective according to those I ran with.

FWIW

[Shadow Scout]

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[Psychlonic]

Funny, I've done pretty well LARPing all these years in camo. If you're not up to the challenge, why even bother with this website?

Edit: I'm going to expand upon this for everyone else. I don't know where this idea that "urban" environments are always 100% lit up, crowded, and completely impossible to move through unseen comes from. By all means, if there's a street loaded with businesses and lights everywhere then yes, it's completely stupid to expect to go through there in camouflage unseen. Nobody is going to operate in Times Square like this and nobody in their right mind is even going to fantasize about it.

However, a street or two away there can be darkness everywhere. Plus there are industrial parks in urban zones. Many urban properties also feature landscaping that can be safely moved through. To say nothing of the fact there are also often less populated suburbs and similar directly attached to them, yet again only a street or two away. Abandoned and run down areas.

If someone needs to move through these impassable areas, you have to settle for gray man. You might wear that the entire night, or you might change your clothing up when you hit an area where it's possible to go invisible. Personally, I've been in many situations going from urban to suburban neighborhoods and had to do this. You very quickly realize how vulnerable you are in solids when you have to do something as mundane as low crawling through a yard past a house with the lights on inside because there's no other way.

Camo is important.

[Xanatos]

I've got some sets of urban camo that work rather well in my area, especially blending into concrete or gravel. Construction sites are replete with shades of grey and sometimes solid black isn't the best option.

[Psychlonic]

Exactly. Sometimes you're going to look suspicious no matter what if you're trying to remain unseen. Trying to blend in with people is fine, but it's not night ops. Why the fuck would this website even exist if that were the case? Thousands of people do that around the world every night. If you wear camo and there are people around and your heart is pounding, join the club! Nobody ever said this was supposed to be the easiest and anybody could do it. It's always been a high risk game.

Literally from the first post of the first topic by Infrared, the guy who propped this up as a concept in the first place:

As for "Nighttime Ops"; Lately what I've been doing is going outside in the dead of night, clad in
dark blue BDU pants and a long-sleeved T-type shirt, same color, and my Magnum Stealth boots.
I steal quietly across the yard, and slip over the wall, into whichever neighbor's yard I feel like
exploring at the moment. I'll go into garage doors and even go in the house, if opportunity
provides. I know it's EXTREMELY stupid, and I expect to get shot someday, but that's beside the
point. I don't even steal or disturb anything. Why the hell not, you say? My goal is to infiltrate, and
leave no traces. No footprints in the yard, no busted locks, etc. I have a lot of fun, basically,
believe it or not, even though I don't do much. Sometimes I'll go into a neighbor's yard, then hop
the wall into THEIR neighbor's yard, etc.

His choice of dark blue was clearly because it's what he had, there's no way someone looking like that is going to blend into a crowd. He was trying to blend into the night.

And just a few posts later:

Yeah, broken cameras are a trace of infiltration, but it's either that, or just run in front of them. Even if I have a mask on, that's still leaving an even-worse trace of infiltration. Those ops will take some serious planning.

The goal was and always has been remaining totally unseen. That is the entire point. If it's impossible? You can't night op that area, then. If you go you're just sneaking around like anyone else is perfectly capable of. There's absolutely nothing special about that.

Don't get me wrong. You don't need a team with drones in the air and trendy camo, but you do need the set of balls to not just walk the road in street clothes just because it's hard and you might get caught. It's not for everybody and it's certainly not for the faint of heart. If that's stupid or not to your liking, right on that's how most of &T felt about it too and why we separated onto our own forum. We will remain that forum.

[spartan_ninja45]

I have some really huge sweatpants I plan to wear over the BDUs when I'm traveling along routes where I might be seen. If I throw on a baggy jacket too I'll be golden. I definitely see where you're coming from Shadow Scout, but I agree with Psychlonic. The main reason I do night ops is for the thrilling/fun aspect. If I happen to get caught dressed like Solid Snake, I'd simply haul ass until I lose them, change back into my grey man attire and walk home. Thanks for the input though, from both of you.

[Raven]

I don't agree with Psychlonic on this one.

Cities are very, VERY challenging, though rewarding, environments to be operating in and not only are they becoming more populated these days, but there are more and more CCTV systems popping up everywhere, so staying "totally unseen" is not really an option for most of us. It wouldn't make any sense to wear cammies on the streets and risk being reported to the police, which would then track you down in a matter of minutes because there is only one moron sneaking around the town in a full set of camouflaged clothes.

Going "grey man" allows you to quickly get to your destination point and not attract any attention, while still working just fine on the objective itself. Your city-compliant attire can even include some camouflage, just make sure it's not uniformed.

We've discussed this earlier on Camouflage vs. Solids. You can also check this topic out.

[Psychlonic]

It's a fair take, but if it cannot be done going totally unseen then you are no longer performing traditional night ops. Gray man is a totally different animal and perhaps one that deserves its own section, but the vibe is 100% different.

However, despite making my stance and the very origin of this website very clear I'm going to continue to drive my point home (as I always have, well before the aforementioned solids vs camo topic). If you are wearing "cammies on the streets" you have brain damage. The idea wasnever to move along conventional population avenues and "LARP" as if wearing camo in situations like that are going to help you any. To bring it up as such, I can only consider that a strawman argument that nobody was ever trying to make.

Not to mention, in the past many simply argued that solids worked fine in situations where they too were attempting to remain totally unseen, not look unsuspicious. Ghost was a great example of this, championing solids but always tried to remain unseen during exploration.

Before going into alternative ways of moving through such an environment, I'm also going to repeat that not every city is some unapproachable bastion of security measures that can't be moved through in such a way. In fact, I don't know of any city like this. Most if not all cities or even smaller towns do have areas that are just extremely risky to do so in and when weighing the risk vs. reward, many will find it's just not worth the effort. There's no shame in this, it's just smart thinking. I do it myself and have gone gray man plenty of times. It's nothing like the experience of going unseen however, but there were times my curiosity got the better of me so I went the inconspicuous route. I've seen impassible areas in towns with less than 10,000 people and I've seen borderline thieves highways in cities with over a million.

There was a time, however, when the challenge was exactly part of the point and so myself and others would absolutely attempt to move through these areas completely unseen and did so with success. It's slow, it's methodical, but it's 100% possible.

Again, many business fronts quite often have alleyways behind them that look similar to this:

Given, most have less bags laying around and more dumpsters and smaller trash bins. Point is, there is plenty of concealment to move to. Now, obviously not every alley is so cramped and generous.

Something like this, I wouldn't want to move through in such a manner. There's just nowhere good to hide, trying to cram against a small piece of wall sticking out is rather desperate and probably going to make your adrenaline spike. I'd go gray man if for whatever reason I had to move through this.

And there is a mountain of considerations here. For one, how much of the operation is going to take place in this type of environment? Am I going to be in it the entire time or am I just passing through a block or two? If so, maybe I still need the ability to blend into the environment better elsewhere because there will be people but superior concealment points I can blend into better if I'm wearing camoflage.

"Urban" doesn't necessarily mean it has to look like this, either.

I have seen many cities with large areas just like this. PLENTY of concealment locations. In a situation like this, chances are it's going to be mostly empty at night with my biggest threat being the occasional car passing by. Sure, I could go gray man and just walk the sidewalk. I could just sit against a wall and look homeless. That's not the point, though. I'm trying to remain unseen. I would be more likely to hide behind a hedge or I could rely on my camo to just blend in and let them pass right on by. Works well.

Here's a construction site. Right in the middle of a city. I think most users are familiar with this type of scenery because so many explore them. Granted, once you're there you'd be better off wearing earthly tones regardless of pattern or lack thereof, but you still have to reach the site. What part of the entire night has more risk, the site itself or reaching the site?

Depends on the city. Weirdly enough, they're not all built the same. Maybe spartan ninja's allows for use of camo and if so it's a great idea. If not - fuck if I'd know - then that's on him.

Can you go through all of these areas wearing typical clothes that have break-up and would blend into a crowd just as well? Absolutely, and I'll be the first to admit it would be easier. It will not, however, hone the unique ability to remain calm under high stress situations that is the hallmark of traditional night ops.

Finally, as for cameras, most of them are only reviewed upon issues arising. If you're wearing camo with a mask on, what exactly are they going to do the day after? If they even know they should look. Sure, they'll think there was some weird fuck out there and that's going to be it. Cameras =/= mission fail.

When I harp about "not true night ops" I am certainly not trying to create a dick measuring contest in who's facing down the most risk. However, the point of this hobby is for there to be at least some and I hope more members will slowly dip their toes in that water and at least try it out before thinking about their night out as purely a matter of reaching something using the path of least resistance. Put yourself into a relatively safe situation where you could have been seen if not for your ability to blend into your environment, not social norms. The feeling that comes from that cannot be matched by gray man and cannot be adequately put into words, but when you feel it the invisible approach will make far more sense. You'll see opportunities it provides that are incredible.

I understand that some members live in areas that are just total shit shows and have no means to transport themselves and their gear to a better starting location. I get it. Going out and doing some gray man exploring is better than sitting at home. I get that. But if it's at all possible, give it a try and maybe you'll at least understand my continued passion for all of this.

TL/DR? Don't blame you!

[Raven]

I see your point.

When I discovered NightOps for myself I also tried leaving the house with the mask on, moving slowly and thinking about every next step, taking cover every now and then, sneaking my way to the objective, and sometimes it worked. The feelings you get when another group of late partygoers passes just a few meters away from you are truly incredible.

But... I've had many times when I've been noticed even if I did everything that I could. There were situations when one man saw me while I was hiding from another. There are tons of observers all around you: having a late snack by the kitchen window, playing videogames, sleeping in their cars, etc. This fight is simply unfair. Plus, as time went on, I got further and further from home, so that if I tried to sneak the whole way there I would get to the objective by noon.

After all those embarrassing failures, I had to change my methods and so I came up with this "gray man" concept. A combination of functionality and unsuspiciousness. I'm still sticking to the shadows and occasionally taking cover for cars, strangers to pass by if the situation permits but when I have to cross this shitty well-lit 6-lane road running through the entire city with constant traffic, I can do it without the risk of someone calling the cops on me, thus compromising the mission.

[V-S]

Operating in cities very much requires grey man tactics to at least get to the AO (area of operation). The struggles I've been through trying to remain unseen just getting to an AO. One time I thought I was safe hiding behind a bush and a lady walks past and looks directly at me. I tried to make it look as if I was pissing but probably made it worse... I was then paranoid she'd call police so had to change my whole plan that night.

[Psychlonic]

LOL fuck. Alright alright, fair. Maybe I just luck into really good cities, I used to operate in one years back with ~100,000 people and you could move all night a street or two away from the main strip unseen no problem, with several avenues of reaching the strip itself or even onto rooftops. The larger >1mil ones I've been in haven't been terrible either.

If it's just unavoidable, I'd be rocking something like this:

Maybe even the jeans too since they make athletic fit ones with spandex in them so they don't ruin mobility.

Funny enough, looking at some of the plaid with lighter grays in them, they actually look difficult to look at. It'd be interesting to see the results of them in better lit areas.