Knife

Tools and equipment to get the job done.
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inbartizan
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Knife

Post by inbartizan » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:33 am

Hi NO, I would like to ask your opinion about "knife"

Which knife do you reccomend to bring during an op ?
What is the pro and con ?

Thanks
... it won't be easy ...

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Xanatos
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Re: Knife

Post by Xanatos » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:29 am

Practically any knife will do the job. Keep in mind that operators carry knives to use as tools, not weapons, so getting an "uber leet tactical karambit with lasers & shit" is entirely unnecessary, unless you plan on digging up roots with laser precision. Find a decent fixed-blade knife with a good sheath that you can wear on your belt.
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Lynx
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Re: Knife

Post by Lynx » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:01 am

A large multitool is an absolute must to have with you. Wire cutters, pliers, knife, screwdriver, file, saw. All in one.

I recommend any Leatherman multitool - best quality. They cost a bit, though... but you get what you pay for.
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Right now I have a Gerber... It's not the BEST quality, but it is good for my purposes. If I ever have to unscrew something large, I just take a normal screwdriver with me.
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Re: Knife

Post by Æternaeon » Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:34 am

+1 on the multitool. Ironically, the parts that are most useful have been the parts that aren't the knife.
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Re: Knife

Post by Teutoni » Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:48 pm

I just carry a Mora normally. Very sharp, cheap, and stainless steel so i'm not worried about what it could get into. I also really enjoy multitools which I had been skeptical about at first but after getting some Leatherman's they are now my every day carry.
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Re: Knife

Post by NewbieNinja » Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:08 am

Have u guys been to bladeforums.com? They often talk about having expensive knives with exotic super steel. There's a term 'steel snob', these are guys that will look down on any blade that isn't super steel.

I wanted to ask ur guys opinion. I feel that since u guys are oppers, ur opinions r more dependable.
Are super steels and expensive knives worth it? How much is expensive?
Is there anything that a cheaper blade or a more humble steel like 440a/440hc can't do?

Oh and how do u guys feel about serrations?

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Xanatos
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Re: Knife

Post by Xanatos » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:15 am

Supersteels certainly have their redeeming quality, if you use knives often enough to justify the investment. They can hold a better edge and have more durable blades that make them suitable for chopping, prying and other tasks.

However, for all intents and purposes, a cheap second-hand station wagon will still get you where you need to go as well as any Ferrari. I'm not too picky about my knife steels; all my opping knives are some form of stainless/surgical steel and they get the job done well enough. A few of the guys at NOPCON have some top-tier quality knives but they don't carry those for opping either. Remember that your gear should be easily replaceable; if you lose something whilst on an op then you're not likely to get it back. And if you drop a wonderfully made, hand-crafted tool steel knife then you've just lost several hundred dollars worth of gear.
Also, having a very personalised blade would make it easier to track you down if your equipment is found on the scene. Finding a common multitool or folding knife that every Tom, Dick & Harry carries will make it much harder to track down the owner.

My SOG Pentagon has serrations along one edge and it's come in handy a few times, especially for cutting through electrical wires. Having serrations certainly doesn't hurt, it just depends on what you're cutting.
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Re: Knife

Post by Psychlonic » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:43 pm

TL/DR WARNING

I consider myself a "knife snob" in the sense that I use mine A LOT in the woods and common tasks plus I am a professionally trained butcher alongside being a hunter who applies knives on my own time to wild game. Knives are a daily fact of my life and I would 100% honestly call a majority of those bladeforums guys armchair commandos. They don't depend on their knives to carry them through situations be they legitimately dire or simulated survival and here's why:

First, I don't mean everyone there and I recognize that there are some down to earth users there as well as many talented smiths. That said, this DOES apply to even some of the big name professional knife makers there.

Many of them fail to recognize WHEN a steel is important. Every steel in my opinion has its place. Stainless is NOT shit, is it invaluable for a blade meant to process animals, fish, or food in general where it will be constantly subject to fluids - especially acid. A good flexible stainless rocks and will not fail, I carry a simple short rapala fillet knife in lieu of a pocket knife on my outdoor expeditions. It is faster, non-intrusive, more reliable, and more versatile while being just as light if not lighter.

Too much emphasis is put on this "super steel" bullshit. There is no super steel. If there was a best steel, we'd all be using it for every single knife. D2 makes an AWFUL big knife. A cursory Google search will show you all the guys who had them snap in half while chopping, which is what these knives are made to do in the first place. The thing is, what steel you use is still limited to the hardening and tempering process. You have hard or soft. Too hard, you snap. Too soft, you lose your edge quickly or even roll the edge easily. But there's an old addage and when you are staking your life on a knife it's more true than ever: it's better to bend than to break.

And that's what the vast majority of these dweebs just don't get. You can resharpen a knife but as soon as it breaks, game over. You can work with the pieces, sure, but you are seriously gimped. The best steels for a chopper are right at that sweet spot of being hard enough to last quite awhile but soft enough that they won't snap like all of those "uber" steels that are all the hype. Consequently, these happen to be the simple 1045-1095 range carbon steels that are far less expensive. Don't get caught up in expensive = better when it comes to knives. Yes, there's a bottom dollar but you don't need or even WANT a $100+ blade IMO.

Now on a smaller knife, ok sure. D2 can work ok but don't get mad when you're batoning and your edge chips. Same for any of the other uber steels. Again, something like 1095 or its cro-van equivalent if you're crying about surface rust will hold an edge for a long time if tempered properly and is more durable overall than the harder steels. Speaking of surface rust, get this: it wipes off. And if it leaves a patina congrats, your knife is now more resistant to the elements. Patina is a good thing as far as reliability goes.

The harder steels are built for tooling because they are not subject to a human controlling them and thus can be designed to complete specific movements over and over again. You as a person will subject your knife to forces you yourself probably won't intend to exert, such as torsion and excessive shock.

Finally, design can and does change when a steel is appropriate. The brittleness of stainless and harder tool steels can be overcome with a thicker design, for example. I have a pretty huge AUS-6 bowie knife. A little too hefty maybe, but it's a fun novelty. Normally I'd steer clear of stainless for a bowie, but because it's so thick it can and has withstood tons of chopping tasks including chopping windfalls, kindling, and small trees alike. It can do everything my carbon blades will do with no problem. In fact if it were sharpened up, it would stand right alongside anything else in a controlled test. That doesn't mean I'd carry it everywhere just because of the weight, but it goes to show that there's more to knives than the status quo suggests. Also, that you can't just look at a controlled test to decide on your knife.

I'm comfortable enough with this opinion that I already know and don't care that most of those people would probably get butthurt at all this and start trying to pick apart my arguments. That's fine. I've already spent my time using easily over 100 blades seriously just in the woods alone, to say nothing of my meat processing, home wood processing, daily tasks, etc. I know what's going to keep me safe, warm, and fed without a doubt. If the day comes some of those tards need to actually put their theory into practice and it fails, maybe it'll hit them that they shouldn't have designed their knives around problems that didn't exist and instead patterned them after actually using knives for awhile. USING them, not chopping on some trees and bottles and thinking they know what they need to make now.

/RANT TL/DR

In the context of an operation, shorter stainless can work just fine in a fixed design for defense but why not just step up to carbon? There are low cost solutions and the blade is more durable in utilitarian tasks for a given size.
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Re: Knife

Post by NewbieNinja » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:55 am

Arm chair commandos.... That's exactly what I was starting to think about them. I think it's more of a Gucci factor, rather than practical use for many members on BF. I've seen threads where a member questions the uber steel hype and is immediately shunned. 'If you have to ask that question, then u couldn't possibly understand.'

Psychlonic, u don't sound like a knife/steel snob, at least in my definition. U seem more like someone who likes knives and has a lot of practical knowledge/experience using them. To me, snobbery comes in when ppl say '"if it's not über steel, it's crap!! And stainless is crap! Period!"

.... Maybe my definition is wrong tho.

It's always great to hear opinions that are backed up by experience. Especially xp from nopping!! ^^
Thanks 4 the input guys.

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Xanatos
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Re: Knife

Post by Xanatos » Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:15 am

No problem.
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Re: Knife

Post by Shade » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:54 pm

I just like a multi-tool that is just good enough to stay in good condition for a while, with a knife I use for the less dirty work. I haven't obtained a good concealable fixed blade, so I have this nice oiled knife I use for slicing and cutting, and my multi tool knife is used for whittling and digging 'n stuff. :P

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Re: Knife

Post by Xanatos » Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:50 am

Digging? With a multitool? I didn't know they come with a trowel attachment.
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Re: Knife

Post by Shade » Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:07 am

I meant for digging out old wood and stuff. Y'know those little hook-blades they sometimes come with? Those are perfect.

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Re: Knife

Post by NewbieNinja » Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:30 am

Hey Xana, I've also had the Sog Pentagon for about a year, although It's been sitting in my desk :(

I'm actually considering having but be my main blade. I think it can be very useful as a light cutting tool and it has both plain and serrated edges. I also love how daggers can cut from both directions.

I'm currently carrying the Gerber LMF Ii.... But I think the Pentagon would make a better weapon.

One thing that does concern me a bit is the lack of a guard... Tho if u death grip the knife, it might not matter.
Since u have been using it longer, I'd like to ask for more of ur thoughts on the blade.

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Xanatos
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Re: Knife

Post by Xanatos » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:17 pm

The lack of a handguard is its only major drawback in my book, however the generous ricasso and ergonomic rubber handle make up for that. And if you're stabbing the knife into something with an icepick grip, you can always place your thumb on the pommel of the knife to stop your hand sliding down.
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Re: Knife

Post by Ghost » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:52 am

The pentagon has a seriously grippy handle, and I have never had my hand slip down towards the blade. I have used the knife covered in water, dirt, and mud, and this really hasn't been an issue. The only need for a prominent handguard would be to protect the hand while parrying or attempting to control anothr blade with your own, and I've yet to hear of a modern knife fighting technique that involves blade-to-blade contact.
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Re: Knife

Post by Xanatos » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:56 pm

Clearly you don't watch enough anime then. :P
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Lynx
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Re: Knife

Post by Lynx » Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:00 pm

Alright, a bit of an off question. I now have a good knife for my general kit, It's a S&W Search and Rescue with a Tanto point (drop point was out of stock). The only drawback with it is the rat tail. I haven't thoroughly tested it yet, but judging off the quality, It'll likely hold up to any NO task that I throw at it. Comes with a MOLLE compatible sheath, so it sits nicely on my vest.

However - I'm looking for something else. I'm looking for a bushcraft knife, a good one - a "one in all" for the woods. Preferably, from TOPS, because I have a hardon for TOPS. A knife that I can take with me into the woods and use it for years. At the moment, I have a 2 dollar mora-like knife. It's the cheapest knife I've found around me, and I can buy a lot of them. Blade is 2mm, high carbon steel. Looks like a standard mora working knife. It has a black rubber/plastic handle with a textured grip. Seems to be locally hand sharpened. Cheap as hell, by the way. I've been using it for a while for a lot in the woods - batoning, notching, cutting of large branches, clearing bush, preparing firewood... It does the job. It weighs nothing, however, so I completely lack chopping ability.
So I want a life-long investment here from TOPS, because I know they make amazing quality knives, and I haven't seen one break yet. I'm looking for something between 200-250 dollars (that's a lot of money for me at the moment). Here are some knives that I'm thinking about, but I can't decide myself at all. Remember - I'm trying to find a good for all. And something that's more unique than a 2 dollar mora.

And before I start, TOPS sheaths seem to be good, and are standardized for most of their knives. So that isn't an issue here.

Cuma Tak-Ri 2.0
https://www.topsknives.com/knives/survi ... a-tak-ri-2

The advantages of the Tom Brown Tracker, without the issues with batoning. It has a nice non-interrupted edge, a secondary edge on top as a backup (also designed for fighting, akin the smatchet - broad but still double edged. And who the hell would I fight in the woods?). It has a 4mm blade thickness, and has a much thinner edge than the Tracker - which has a really... Steep grind, so it bites a bit too much when doing carving tasks. At least that's what I've seen when it was in use. And the disadvantage is, again, the 4mm blade thickness. That's thick - by all means - but will it hold up to bushcraft tasks for a decade without bending? It may be outstanding for a few years, but then what?
Extra feature is a prybar as the butt. The Cuma was developed for "tactical use", so the end is made to pry out doors and windows.

Bushcrafter Kukri
https://www.topsknives.com/knives/survi ... kukuri-7-0

A small kukri, about the size of a ka-bar. Holds up well to pretty much any task - chops much better than most knives, but doesn't have the weight of a full size kukuri behind it.

Tahoma Field Knife
https://www.topsknives.com/tahoma-field-knife

Like the Cuma, it has a double edge configuration. Same blade thickness (4mm), equipped with a lot of small features to make camping easier. Overall great knife -I'd buy this for someone who is outdoors a lot. I haven't seen a bad review on it yet.

Steel Eagle
https://www.topsknives.com/steel-eagle-111a-tanto-point

28 cm, 6mm thick blade. Full length sawback and a tanto point. You can also get it in a "hunter's" point, which is basically a drop point. Again, only positive reviews about it. Seems like it could handle anything. Psych would probably have a say about it... It's long enough to work as a small machete and is thick enough for batoning. Eh, why not? If I could just buy it, I would. But now I gotta choose one knife.

Tom Brown Tracker
https://www.topsknives.com/tom-brown-tracker-1

Of course I'd want it. It was in the Hunted. Not the TOPS version, but still. What I like about it is that It's big, heavy and has a lot of uses. I don't mind big heavy knives, I like them that way. My hands don't get tired using big knives for tedious tasks - batoning is only made easier, carving makes no difference. I can see that for some it may be an issue.
Problem with the Tracker is that it's... a bit gimmicky. There are very mixed reviews about it. Some love it, some hate it. I see it as a jack of most trades - and pretty shit at some. Chopping is hard with a Tracker, I suppose. There aren't many areas to successfully chop with. The front curved edge may slip off and the back edge provides too little leverage. I don't know though, I haven't used it.
Again, I like the weight, thickness and overall bulkiness of the knife. Doesn't seem like it would ever break.

So, what are your thoughts?
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Re: Knife

Post by NewbieNinja » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:52 am

Xanatos wrote:Clearly you don't watch enough anime then. :P
haha!! :D

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Re: Knife

Post by NewbieNinja » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:58 am

Yeah, the pentagon is really growing on me.... Haven't really carried it yet, but I was cutting boxes with it.... I really like having two separate edges. I also feel that daggers are cool in that you can cut both ways.... for example, u can hold it in reverse grip and slash with the outer edge, or pull in during a stab to rip.... (pi'kal i think is the name....?). You don't have to choose between edge in or out attacks.

If you hold it edge up, the back edge can also be used to pull upwards after a stab for a rip....


Though the trade off is u you can't really use it for hard tasks like wood processing.... Time to get me a hatchet!! :)

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Re: Knife

Post by NewbieNinja » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:09 am

I don't know much about Tops knives, but I got my eye on the Becker BK2 and BK7.

The BK2 can be had for about $60 or $70 (USD)
BK7 about $80 (USD)

I heard lots of good things about Beckers while lurking other forums..... It also seems to be more affordable than TOPS knives.

Here's a review I just saw from Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=531&v=gW1mnrxVRCg


Thicker blades don't slice as well tho.... that's why I'm gonna mess around with some thinner blades for a bit.

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Re: Knife

Post by Xanatos » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:33 am

Lynx, I'd go with the Tahoma Field Knife out of the ones you picked. Seems the most versatile.
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Re: Knife

Post by Psychlonic » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:58 pm

I'm not sure I understand what you're shopping for. Are you after a pure woods knife or a woods knife you can also carry on night ops?
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Re: Knife

Post by Xanatos » Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:59 am

A pure night op he can knife in the woods.
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Re: Knife

Post by Lynx » Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:46 pm

Psychlonic wrote:I'm not sure I understand what you're shopping for. Are you after a pure woods knife or a woods knife you can also carry on night ops?
Pure woods knife. But it has to fill a lot of roles - my current knife doesn't have the chopping power, nor the weight to split larger pieces of wood.
The knife has to whittle, scrape, cut, shop, notch, split... And possibly defend against animals. If you were to go into the woods with a knife from them, which one would you take with you?
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Re: Knife

Post by Psychlonic » Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:04 pm

TOPS? Probably none of them. I'm sure they're good knives and all but none of them look anywhere near their price in terms of functionality. If I'm going to spend that much - which I'm not, ever - there shouldn't be a single thing I look at and wish was different.

To me there's no single knife for all jobs especially in the realm of woodscraft. I always carry two - a thick larger knife for heavy duty tasks that's meant to take massive abuse without fail so I don't become stranded without a vital tool, and a small fillet knife or mini camp knife for fine tasks. I've found that any knife that fits the general "fighting knife" size and profile doesn't suit me in the woods. Sure I can get what I need done with one but the attempt to compromise ends up making nearly every task with it slower and more laborious than need be. That eliminates a great deal of the TOPS knives already.

I would second the Tahoma and if someone just gave it to me I'd be ok with it, but the problem is that I can easily find a multitude of knives out there I would rather have if I needed one to rely on and they're all cheaper. Condor Moonshiner, Becker BK9 if found cheap enough, Kershaw Camp 10, etc. or hell even an amazing kukri specimen can be had for under $100.

Give me a Moonshiner and a Rapala 4" flexible blade all for $75 and I can perform every task I know how to do in the woods and am happy. Some people complain the Moonshiner is too soft of a steel at 1075 but having used one I don't understand the gripe. Any task you need a sharper blade for you'll probably also benefit from better handling as well and that's where the Rapala takes over.

I know this probably isn't what you're looking for and you're more than welcome to pass right over it with no offense taken. I guess I would just suggest that whatever you get, commit to using it a ton and getting a feel for the knife. You'll know what you want after using knives for a long time out there.
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Re: Knife

Post by Xanatos » Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:30 am

Psychlonic wrote:To me there's no single knife for all jobs especially in the realm of woodscraft.
True. If there was one single best knife, then we wouldn't have so many different kinds of knives because everyone would just copy that one perfect design. The same applies to any weapon/tool/boot/glove/car/camouflage pattern - there is no single best option, there can only ever be better options for certain tasks.
We are all books containing thousands of pages and within each lies an irreparable truth.
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