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Shadow Scout
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Post by Shadow Scout » Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:35 pm

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Last edited by Shadow Scout on Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Sicarius » Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:49 pm

Agreed, except on preparation and whatnot. You should train your mind and formulate plans, no matter what, as that is what keeps you out of prison and able to better act under stress. I like my gear and other material stuff for operations, but I agree with you; willpower is far more important
"If one cannot be both, it is much better to be feared than loved" - Niccolo Machiavelli, The Prince

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Bruce Wayne » Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:57 pm

I concur with the both of you. Well said.
"If you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal and if they can't stop you, you become something else entirely - legend, Mr Wayne."

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Sleven » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:37 am

Yes!
[ Exit The Faketrix ]

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Xanatos
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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Xanatos » Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:22 pm

My first forays into opping were with Sam Fisher-tier gear (or at least what a teenager like me could afford at the time). Dressed to the nines with every bit of kit imaginable. After the first few ops though, I realised I never ended up using most of the shit I brought. This is where I developed the concept of a SOL - Standard Op Loadout - to trim down my gear to the bare essentials. Most of the time now I just bring a knife as a "just in case" and wing it. Unless I know I'll be operating in pitch blackness or need to bypass a lock, I rarely bring anything else.
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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Seraphim » Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:21 pm

Xanatos wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:22 pm
My first forays into opping were with Sam Fisher-tier gear (or at least what a teenager like me could afford at the time). Dressed to the nines with every bit of kit imaginable. After the first few ops though, I realised I never ended up using most of the shit I brought. This is where I developed the concept of a SOL - Standard Op Loadout - to trim down my gear to the bare essentials. Most of the time now I just bring a knife as a "just in case" and wing it. Unless I know I'll be operating in pitch blackness or need to bypass a lock, I rarely bring anything else.
This.

It might be because I haven't done super complicated ops, but I find that what I need 99% of the time is-
-Appropriate clothing and footwear, obvious.
-A knife. I always carry a pocket knife unless I'm in the rare situation where it's totally forbidden. For ops I just take something a little bigger and more heavy duty than what I usually carry, as in a strong lock-blade folder versus my usual penknife.
-Illumination. Dakota watch company makes a carabiner-style watch with a red flashlight integrated into the front. I always go red, for conserving night vision and all that.
-Hydration.

Life's hard enough when you only spend money on essentials. Don't make it harder.

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Vengeance » Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:11 am

I don't bring blades of any kind. Always worried about that extra charge being slapped on me.
It's the nature of this beast to feed upon the will to numb it, this monster brought the seed of life, well now i have become it.

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by V-S » Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:19 am

Vengeance wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:11 am
I don't bring blades of any kind. Always worried about that extra charge being slapped on me.
As useful as they are, I tend to avoid knives/multi-tools too unless I am going bush or know that I am going to need it. My biggest concern is also being searched by police. Once they know you carry knives, they'll search you every time they see you.

Regarding knives as a self defense tool, unless your life is in immediate danger, I honestly think it's better to flee if you have the opportunity. If you pull a knife to show you are armed, the opponent might pull a gun on you if they are armed. And then finally are you willing to commit to using that knife. All it takes is one jab in the certain area of the body and you've just killed someone.
The Sun is down, time to go to work.

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Seraphim » Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:14 pm

V-S wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:19 am
Vengeance wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 12:11 am
I don't bring blades of any kind. Always worried about that extra charge being slapped on me.
As useful as they are, I tend to avoid knives/multi-tools too unless I am going bush or know that I am going to need it. My biggest concern is also being searched by police. Once they know you carry knives, they'll search you every time they see you.

Regarding knives as a self defense tool, unless your life is in immediate danger, I honestly think it's better to flee if you have the opportunity. If you pull a knife to show you are armed, the opponent might pull a gun on you if they are armed. And then finally are you willing to commit to using that knife. All it takes is one jab in the certain area of the body and you've just killed someone.
I think this is a situational thing. I live in the US, where pocket knives are tolerated and ubiquitous in most places, except in some big city areas and/or extremely politically "progressive" areas. Where I live, basically any sort of folding knife won't draw suspicion or raise alarms as long as you don't brandish it/whip it out without reason. Within the context of night ops, I have mixed feelings about knives as defensive weapons, depending on factors such as where you live, the nature of the op, and personal details about yourself.

If you put in the time and effort to learn basic knife combatives, it can be a workable and concealable weapon, but you have to learn the basics first. It's not as self-explanatory as a handgun (and even that requires, at the very least, responsible self-directed training). That being said, knives can be workable weapons. Leaving aside the issue that most people aren't familiar with even the rudiments of knife fighting, I have three basic concerns off the top of my head about taking knives on ops-

1. A "charge multiplier." The first problem I see with bringing firearms on ops (and I'm not judging those of you who do) is that even something as simple as a trespassing charge can be very serious if you throw a firearm in, even if you're owning and carrying it within the law. I wouldn't put it past law enforcement to attempt this sort of reasoning with a knife. "He was ARMED while committing the crime!" I DO carry knives on ops, as mentioned above, but it's always the sort that won't draw attention/something I could take to my office job.

2. Legal liabilities in the event you did use it defensively. Based on conventional wisdom, (where I live in the US) you can shoot somebody dead with a firearm (outside of activities like night ops) but as long as it's legitimately done defensively you're within the law and should be fine. Use a knife in a legitimate self-defense situation, and you're looked upon with suspicion even if you only inflict minor injuries. Now take this double-standard and put it within the context of doing something sketchy like night ops. Recipe for disaster.

3. Underage operatives. I know from having read this forum for a while that we have a few operatives who are under 18 or who started opping before turning 18. Tons of teenagers in my area carry pocket knives (except in school, of course) and it's a generally accepted practice, but it can make a case for the argument of "juvenile delinquency" on the part of shrewish law enforcement if they are inclined toward that.

My final point is that it's also possible to bring a small cutting tool (like a small Swiss Army knife or some other non-locking penknife), which would make a weapons charge far less plausible.

TL;DR- I do carry a modest knife on ops. I don't recommend them as weapons. I don't encourage nor discourage knives. Always bring one if you think you will need it, but leave it at home if you think it will cause trouble.

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Shadow Scout » Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:06 pm

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Seraphim » Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:21 pm

Shadow Scout wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:06 pm
In the US at least, carrying a pocket knife is normal and doesn't seem like much additional risk. I rarely use mine, but I'd rather have it than not, for psychological reasons at least. Sometimes there's an annoying thorny vine in my way that a knife can take care of quietly and cleanly. And if some crazy dog or person attacks me, at least I've got something to discourage him.
Same. I carry a knife all the time unless on a plane or something. Often times it's something impossible to use as a weapon- like a non-locking diminutive pen knife- but I just feel naked without a cutting tool of some sort. I always assumed it was a Southern thing, until I realized people all over the world generally do the same unless absolutely forbidden- Britain comes to mind. The French Opinel knives and the Japanese Higo are examples.

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by V-S » Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:45 am

I do agree with your points. Knives/multi-tools do seem too useful to go with out.

I think I'm just super cautious because when I was a teenager, the local police would ALWAYS stop and search me and confiscate gear. This was in Australia where weapon restrictions are higher than the US.
The Sun is down, time to go to work.

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Xanatos » Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:10 am

I've never been stopped once for carrying a knife - and I carry one with me always. Heck, today at work I had to use my karambit 3 times - 2 of those times people specifically asked for me to use my knife.

This is in Australia, mind.
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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Vengeance » Tue Mar 21, 2023 1:58 pm

I too have never been stopped for one. I feel safer carrying one during the day than after hours funny enough.
It's because of that AUS "programming" (Knife=bad)
Still trying to shake it.

Few months back a guy witnessed a gang beating on some dude, when he tried to intervene a member of said gang pulled out a firearm and killed him.
(in qld)
I feel most aus citizens are hopelessly brainwashed. The ones that aren't prey on the rest of a population that can't hope to defend itself.

Relation to your using a karambit at work, in QLD it's legal to carry a "Swiss army knife" for utility purposes
Can pretty much guarantee it's not the case down there however.

Feel like qld is more "lax" with some of its laws.
Feel bad for you down there, can't even play gelsoft
it's fun af and lets you put some of your skills to work without having to worry about being caught or killed.
It's the nature of this beast to feed upon the will to numb it, this monster brought the seed of life, well now i have become it.

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by basewatcher » Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:25 pm

that stuff isnt purchased just for the sake of looking cool. by all means if you have no use scenario for rappel kit/nods/etc dont use it. its all about mission first, what tools do you need to accomplish the mission? what tools would make accomplishing the mission safer (First) and most effective (Second)

btw a knife is as deadly of a weapon as a firearm. if you feel you need a deadly weapon, use a firearm. if its for utility, go with the knife. very few will wield a knife in a useful way, they usually end up with deep cuts to their own hands and arms or worse.
you've just killed someone.
forgive my brazen attitude but crap happens. the person on the wrong end of you was likely in the night doing just what you are doing. their own mission, objective, whatever you want to call it. if they wield deadly force they can and should expect the same returned in kind. if they die, it could just as easily have been you taking the ground temp challenge. live by the gun die by the gun, its a gamble.

personal advice is avoid those encounters. if you survive the 1st chances are you wont survive the 2nd.

that operator life is serious biz
Last edited by basewatcher on Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Seraphim » Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:36 am

As an American, I've had to make peace that the rest of the Anglosphere doesn't have the same positive attitude toward firearms as we do (even though a lot of individual Englishmen/Australians/etc do), but I've never understood the hysteria about knives. You can't ever legislate sharp or pointy objects out of existence, and any attempt to do so basically amounts to imposing airport/prison level security on the whole country, which is ridiculous.

I'm not every going to illegally carry a firearm unless it's an absolute necessity, but knives are a matter of simple geometry. I recommend the Mercator K55K for anybody who's up to spend around $40 USD on a relatively simple knife. Locks up tight, VERY sharp (though you have to be proactive about preventing rust if you get the carbon version, which is unfortunately the best in terms of taking and keeping an edge), large enough blade to use as a weapon if you had to, and it's flat enough to hide in a wallet. I call it the "M1911 of pocket knives" because it's relatively large but very thin, yet still strong.

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by saysf » Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:15 pm

Knives are often a fetish like so much "EDC" gear. Get any decent knife, get used to carrying it, get used to using it, train with it.

I carry a small Benchmade -all the time-.

Not sure why "hide in your wallet" is a selling point. I want my knife very easy to access, even if I am just opening a box.

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Xanatos
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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Xanatos » Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:46 pm

Yeah, I don't get the "wallet" designs either. They're inferior to pretty every other knife (folding or fixed) - not nearly as strong, large or versatile, and nowhere near as convenient to access.
We are all books containing thousands of pages and within each lies an irreparable truth.
What is locked, can be opened. What is hidden, can be found. What is yours... can be mine.

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Re: Gear and Training Are Overrated. Just Do It.

Post by Intruder » Thu May 18, 2023 6:28 pm

Bad shoes are a problem if overated.
Training matters because the best training is better physical fitness. Watching someone struggle to barely cross a chain link fence is a hilarious sight as well as a depressing one. Being gear dependant is bad. Being gear optioned is not. First Aid habit is mostly gear oriented. Nothing wrong with a sterile IFAK. Having a flashlight that does IR and can reliably be used to see exactly where you are for hours at a time because it's got a great battery is gear. Being hands free and having gloves so you don't cut your shit up and leave traces is a gear concern. Having something that masks you is a gear concern. That's all without training.
You need to do something so much more simple than all or nothing. Train with your gear, do shit with your gear. Familairise.

As for knives, carry a good folder if you have to hide it, a fixed blade if you have to depend on it. End of the day insane things are illegal now and you can never win if busted.
As my father says "Know your laws and know your ignores."

Seraphim, in 1995/6 you should still get a rotating bolt AR based full giggle rifle in Australia. AAA in Tasmania used to make them. Leader Dynamics T2. Australia was one of the most hyperloaded gun havens for years and you woudln't believe what still persists. Much of the restrictions are just restrictions not bans, but the rego, the safe requirements and the transport is insane. But still not as bad as say, Jersey or some of the more hellish US states. Think of US like Canada is the politicians were too stupid to know what to mess up. Let's just say there are a lot of FCG 9s here. Can't have a ninja star, but I can get 300. blackout straight pull AR for way too much money. IE A wedgetail. They came down hardest on Shotguns of all things, Semi Autos, despite loads of primary produces having a need for them and for some reason a near uniform ban on body armour and plates for carriers.

Saysf, if you like firearms in the USA, don't ever let Benchmade get your money, they are anti second amendment lobby. In a big way.

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