Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

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Æternaeon
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Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Æternaeon » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:57 am

Doesn't matter, just get out and op!
Sacrifice the body, not the heart.

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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Xanatos » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:06 am

That eloquently sums up every single discussion on camo vs. solids we've ever had here.
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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Ghost » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:20 pm

Bu-bu-but muh ATACS-FG!
"A man's greatest treasures are his illusions."

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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Xanatos » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:26 pm

Multicam master race.

Ooh, it's on now!
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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Roxas » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:49 pm

subdued urban camo master race reporting in

if i had to go with FG or MC id go FG

A-tacs FG: 2

Multicam: 1

subdued urban camo:1
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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Xanatos » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:00 am

KNEEL BEFORE YOUR GOD!

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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Teutoni » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:02 am

Kryptek seems awesome but i'd pit Mandrake against A-TACS FG anytime!
Keep 'em chained, boys!

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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Xanatos » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:57 am

Image

/thread
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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Æternaeon » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:59 am

So, this thread was obvious parody of a tired old argument but having returned from NOPCON I did want to bring this issue up in a serious albeit not critical manner.

Operating with so many people at night I found was a great opportunity to see this argument in practice with some operatives wearing black and others wearing camouflage patterns. Patterns included woodland BDU, Auscam, ATACS-FG, multicam, and although it wasn't worn during an operation I also got to see what the USAF's ABU looked like in the dark against various materials.

Some of the other guys there can weigh in on this but my eyes definitely had a much harder time locating fellow operatives wearing the camouflage as opposed to the darker solids, and this is considering I knew they were there and had my natural night vision at its peak. This applied even against buildings. My theory is that while the pattern doesn't match, you don't really see the pattern at night in the dark as you would in the daytime. The silhouette breaks up into a blur rather than blending into the background.

I also got to see something else that was interesting: depending on the clothing material, camouflage will severely lose its effectiveness when wet. The material darkens enough that the operative is effectively wearing black in the night. Not all materials have this effect. In my case, during one operation I was wearing an Army combat shirt and mil-spec trousers in multicam. The shirt darkened into something more like a woodland BDU while the trousers kept their existing effectiveness, for better or worse. In our situation, rain was what darkened our camouflage.

Black did do very well in situations where there was significantly less light. One can make the argument that of course it would since it's flat out harder to see, but it's worth noting.

To close, I maintain that while camo appeared to perform much better, black is still perfectly ok and gets the job done. It is easily available, cheap, tends to maintain effectiveness regardless of terrain, and none of the operatives wearing it were seen at any point nor have they been seen much if ever in the past. It's proven. As an operative on the location I had the luxury of having a discerning eye up close for nitpicking. As we analyze ourselves, it's easy to think how much we stand out. But nobody else is in our shoes and we generally blend in better than we think. Not to say anyone should get complacent or that camo would improve things even more, but I can't think of any operation that can't be accomplished just wearing basic black.

So don't despair if you can't afford ever-increasing camo prices. Just get out and op.
Sacrifice the body, not the heart.

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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Xanatos » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:29 am

I can vouch for the effectiveness of camo, although I must say the men in black performed just fine. In the night, black camo is indistinguishable from shadow so silhouette is your main enemy when out in the open. But once hidden in shadows, black makes you virtually invisible. It was incredible watching my fellow operatives in black vanish in & out of the darkness, like something out of the Night Angel trilogy.
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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Raven » Tue Apr 04, 2023 4:17 pm

A bit late but I face the same problem now when I am buying additional gear. You've already said that a proper camouflage works better that just black but I have some concerns:
1. I operate 95% in highly-urbanized environment of a big city and I can't even say if I should choose Multicam or black. Cities have a lot of concrete and asphalt backgrounds so both dark/black color and Multicam work fine here.
2. Even though I try to avoid people, there are still situations where I have to face them when moving to or from my AO and at this point black looks much more inconspicuous than a camouflage pattern.

Would be glad to hear your opinion.

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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Shadow Scout » Tue Apr 04, 2023 7:34 pm

.
Last edited by Shadow Scout on Mon Jan 15, 2024 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by HouseEater47 » Wed Apr 05, 2023 12:28 am

Not everybody is out for the sights. Anybody can get the wrong impression.

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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Intruder » Fri Apr 14, 2023 3:38 pm

Raven wrote:
Tue Apr 04, 2023 4:17 pm
A bit late but I face the same problem now when I am buying additional gear. You've already said that a proper camouflage works better that just black but I have some concerns:
1. I operate 95% in highly-urbanized environment of a big city and I can't even say if I should choose Multicam or black. Cities have a lot of concrete and asphalt backgrounds so both dark/black color and Multicam work fine here.
2. Even though I try to avoid people, there are still situations where I have to face them when moving to or from my AO and at this point black looks much more inconspicuous than a camouflage pattern.

Would be glad to hear your opinion.
Okay lemme give you some skinny.

There are a few things that happen when you see someone in a street in an urban setting.
The first is you clock intent.
1 Do they look like they belong there?
2 Are they in attire that is likely to be there? (Guy in a construction stained pair of work pants walking out of a construction site vs someone in a pair of addidas track pants with leather jacket moment)
3 Are they looking around and like they belong?
4 Are they nervous. Twitchy. Staring too much. Stopping at all and looking around? Do they look lost?
5 Are they having a smoke? Sitting down. Playing with a phone? Having a conversation on a phone? All of these are normal.
6 Do they achknowladge you and move on asap?

As you can see clothing is less of an imprint than behaviour. How you act always counts more. Always. People pay attention most to uniforms. Cops. Military. Security. Buisiness suits that could be someone official or working nearby. Someone with stakes.
That's the kind of clothing that stands out.

So here's what you should do. Keep clean. Keep quiet. Keep normal.
Do people watching expeditions in the area and build a working wardrobe. That is clothes that you keep for NOPs and ONLY for NOPs. I have 4 black hoodies, and a few grey track pants, couple of green plain cargos and shoes that are proof and trackless for urban moves.

In all my years evading people the most important thing is this - If you look like you belong, you can be still. If you look like you don't belong, just keep moving. If you keep moving then you are "on the way somewhere" If you are still then you should be "Waiting for someone," "About to get back to work" or "Busy at the moment."
Dress for these moods. Camo looks most suspicious when it is standardised, that is used in a UNIFORM way. No one is going to look twice at you wearing some m81 cargos and a black hoodie. Full black? Maybe. Full camo absolutely. Don't go walking around in fatigues unless you plan to cut and run hard. IE never because your clothing is a tool and you need the best tool for the job.

Get 1 grey hoodie, a plain anorak/windshell, x2 pairs of cargo pants, either green grey or tan, some plain sneakers that don't have relfective elements, and a set of plain T's that you should consider disposable. Get some tube masks they are cheap and make good quick ID hiders. Get a wool balaclava, as in bike riding not a ski mask one. I mean a thin, clean high quality one. Get a few hats. Beanie, cap and a plain hard hat are good.

The next thing is credibility props. That means anything that makes you look like you are on the way. Or as I've said meant to be there.

The best catch all uniform for a city I find is anything that you can reasonably pass as someone going for a late night run. No one questions someone running in a nike sport jacket with some generic track pants and a very small bag. That's gym stuff. Everyone is on the workout binge since the kung flu hit. Use it. Same goes with covid masks, use it. Get a dark one and a light one that you can change over as you reach blind spots. Get a reversible jacket. Grey outside blue inside, black outside or green inside is actually common. Look around. Remember you only have to change enough to not fit an immediate distription.

A hat change, a reversable jacket and removing a mask for something different is a whole other person. Remember that and start building a disposable wardrobe and go from there.

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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Raven » Sat Apr 15, 2023 3:04 pm

Yeah, I also think that going full black is kinda suspicious and adding some tan/camouflage helps. The problem with urban camouflage is that it has to blend in with the environment and at the same time not look too conspicuous.
Intruder wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2023 3:38 pm
Get 1 grey hoodie
I'm not sure about hoodies. I've tried it once on an OP, but due to intense physical activity and hot summer night temperatures, I've started overheating very quickly. What worked for me was a black longsleeve because its thickness allows for ventilation while still covering most of my skin, but I admit it looks a little too eye-catching.

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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Xanatos » Sat Apr 15, 2023 5:19 pm

You can get lighter, more breathable hoodies. Like this one I posted earlier: https://www.antarcticaoutdoors.com/coll ... 0169991330

Varusteleka also make some good products, like this merino wool hoodie: https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/ ... odie/30651
I have one in grey.
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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Intruder » Sun Apr 16, 2023 7:23 am

Raven wrote:
Sat Apr 15, 2023 3:04 pm
I'm not sure about hoodies. I've tried it once on an OP, but due to intense physical activity and hot summer night temperatures, I've started overheating very quickly. What worked for me was a black longsleeve because its thickness allows for ventilation while still covering most of my skin, but I admit it looks a little too eye-catching.
Yeah not a normal store bought one if you have climates that aren't cold to deal with. If you are worried about overheating due to needing to run, I suggest a waffletop / Grid fleece.

Image

Image

Something like this in general. Lots of places make lighter grid fleeces. You can often see the light through them and they keep you warm when cooled off and moving but breathe when you are doing sweat work.

I keep a bunch of it because it makes a good underlayer for rainshells when the temp drops but stops me needing enclosed layers. Rainponcho + regular fleece with grid fleece baselayer carries me through winter here. In summer it's merino shirt and grid fleece for night. It's a pretty useful layer. You can get a lot of them quite cheap especially if you look for USMC waffletops. They are pretty standard.

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Re: Camouflage vs. Solids - What You Should Choose

Post by Xanatos » Mon Apr 17, 2023 10:50 am

You can also get thin, hooded sweatshirts that are perfect for summer: https://thai-clothing.com/product-categ ... s-hoodies/
These ones are from Thailand, where it's hot & humid pretty much year-round.
We are all books containing thousands of pages and within each lies an irreparable truth.
What is locked, can be opened. What is hidden, can be found. What is yours... can be mine.

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