The FLIR Threat

Exchange the techniques and skills needed to walk the shadows. Post your guides and how-tos here.
NewbieNinja
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The FLIR Threat

Postby NewbieNinja » Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:16 am

Hey everyone, I'm still a newb. I don't have much experience at all.

The biggest obstacle that keeps me from oping are FLIR mounted helicopters. Flir is thermal imaging.

These helicopters patrol at random times of the night. They'll fly around and sometimes circle an area for 45min - 1hr.
Sometimes they leave only to return circle around again for a long time. :(

Do you guys have any tips against flir mounted helicopters?

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Xanatos
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby Xanatos » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:57 am

Are they actively searching for stuff or do they patrol 'just in case'? If they've got their instruments up & running, wear something that blocks thermal signatures. A mylar-lined cloak or something.
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Psychlonic
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby Psychlonic » Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:07 am

Are you sure they're not looking for something specifically? Choppers are not cheap to keep in the air, it's hard to imagine them operating without a good reason.
There is a difference between those who feel safest in the light and those who feel safest in the dark.

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Lynx
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby Lynx » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:24 pm

Image
I can see how FLIR would be a problem, as specially if they spot a human lying on the ground behind a house. It isn't that common... so even if they aren't looking for you, they might send someone to investigate.
Sounds a bit extreme to have regular helo patrols going around like that - have you wondered what they're looking for?

Image
And damn, opping in a FLIR monitored area would suck. Perhaps op between their patrol windows, if possible?
Don't take it too seriously, you're not coming out of it alive.

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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby NewbieNinja » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:18 pm

They seem to appear at random times. And they circle around.

I recall one time the helicopter actively looking for someone. On the loud speaker, 'Come out, we know you're out there.'
I was just standing out in front of my yard (not opping), looking up at them.
The helicopter starts to hover over me wondering if I'm the suspect...... So I just went back inside. :/
They continue flying for like an hour.

It's really frustrating. It doesn't seem like a fixed schedule. They just pop whenever they feel like it or when someone's wanted.
Problem is that they may show up when I'm opping and I dunno how to deal with it.

Thanks for your suggestions so far.
Have any of u guys run into this kind of thing?

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Xanatos
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby Xanatos » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:24 pm

Once or twice I spotted a chopper flying about whilst on an op, but both times I was on my way to or from the AO. As I'm writing this, there's one flying overhead right now... how quaint.

My best advice would be to identify which direction it's coming from and get behind something solid until it passes, or carry something like a darkened mylar blanket to shield yourself.
We are all books containing thousands of pages and within each lies an irreparable truth.
What is locked, can be opened. What is hidden, can be found. What is yours... can be mine.

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cobalt
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby cobalt » Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:31 pm

I just watched Orwells 1984 yesterday evening and reading this thread now is kind of funny and sinister at the same time.
Specifically one image of a helicopter just hovering around, randomly looking through peoples windows popped in my mind reading this.
Well whatever, I just thought i might share this coincidence with you :P
This sounds really bad for you as a nopper! May I ask which country you live in?
Btw, an instructional for the mylar blanket mentioned before can be found here http://www.nightops.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=335 ...
I was moving through the silence without motion waiting for you

NewbieNinja
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby NewbieNinja » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:57 pm

Whoa!! That thread was all the way from 2008!!
It might be what I need. :) Wish I'd known about it earlier lol.

It's a brilliant idea, Psychlonic!! (Btw, loved your guide "Way of the Shadow")
Thanks again for your guys' help.

Oh I live in the United States.

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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby NewbieNinja » Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:03 pm

Lynx wrote:Image


Lmao!! :D

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Psychlonic
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby Psychlonic » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:08 pm

Thank you, but bear in mind that the mylar shield - while it DOES block your IR signature - was really only designed in that guide to move through empty buildings protected with electronic security. It's very bright, fragile, and cumbersome. And even then, proper employment requires a good knowledge of how PIR sensors work along with usage of movement technique.

You can get olive drab, black, or camouflage casualty blankets that are quieter and lined with heavier mylar that won't tear as easily. They cost more - $30 roughly - but they are far superior. One might go about designing a better rigid "skeleton" than simple cardboard although hypothetically the corrugations should help prevent heat transfer if parts of the shield touch your body. And bear that in mind, while it blocks heat it can still transfer it so if you heat the material up, it's going to "soak through" and become visible again.

Another quick material option would be the mylar windshield shades out there.

The use of the shield in an evasion scenario where people are actively looking for you would be quite tricky and this was never the intention of the design, although I suppose a better design could remedy this. I've seen my work posted elsewhere with armchair survivalists scoffing at it as being too much of a gizmo to be effective but again, that was never the point of the design. It would severely immobilize you and I have no idea how effective it could be if employed at a normal rate of movement.

Perhaps a Mark II design should be thought up. FLIR technology is only going to get cheaper and cheaper, and the mylar shield isn't up to snuff.
There is a difference between those who feel safest in the light and those who feel safest in the dark.

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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby NewbieNinja » Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:31 pm

Thanks for the warning, Psychlonic. I hadn't thought of how cumbersome it might be.
I just read somewhere that Flir is unable to see through objects, contrary to the movies.

From watching flir YouTube videos, this seems to be true. I think I also read that you can hide if vegetation is thick enough.... Until your body warms up the surrounding area.

I guess I'll just keep my ears open and duck for cover when I hear something flying by.
I still dunno how well that'd work in an active search though.

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Rex
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby Rex » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:14 am

This:
Xanatos wrote:My best advice would be to identify which direction it's coming from and get behind something solid until it passes...

Xanatos gives you some great advice here.
The only thing I can add is:
I don't think I'd rely upon hiding in the bushes. Your going to need some some real cover...
Under a bridge, in a shed, crawl in a culvert, etc...
But doesn't thermal detect footprints?
Let's face it. We aren't getting any younger, and nighttime ops never gets old.

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Psychlonic
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby Psychlonic » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:57 am

It can depending on the terrain and footwear or lack thereof but generally it won't be an issue. It can be very good at picking up tire tracks though from friction and probably similar if a person were creating a lot of friction on asphalt.

Ditto on needing heavier cover, using bushes can absolutely get you caught because your signature still leaks through the minimal cover. It should be possible in most areas to detect a helicopter closing in well before it actually reaches you.
There is a difference between those who feel safest in the light and those who feel safest in the dark.

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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby NewbieNinja » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:05 am

^Agreed. I'd definitely go for solid cover over bushes.

Though in a future opping location, thick bushes seem to be the only concealment.
The choppers don't seem patrol there though.

God help me if they do during my op lol!!

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Rex
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby Rex » Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:18 am

Then some type of mylar would be a good thing to carry.
Maybe one of those fire shields that firemen carry when they work forest fires could work.
They deploy the shield and get under it. Probably expensive though. Real expensive, I'd guess.

But wrapping oneself in a heavy mylar in combination of being under thick shrubs might give you enough time for them to fly on by.
Let's face it. We aren't getting any younger, and nighttime ops never gets old.

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Xanatos
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby Xanatos » Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:48 pm

As Psychlonic pointed out, Mylar absorbs body heat so 'wearing' a Mylar blanket is not the best idea. Carrying one in a belt pouch and deploying it when necessary however is a better solution.
We are all books containing thousands of pages and within each lies an irreparable truth.
What is locked, can be opened. What is hidden, can be found. What is yours... can be mine.

NewbieNinja
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby NewbieNinja » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:02 am

Thanks for all ur advice!! :)

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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby NewbieNinja » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:11 am

Check this out!
https://www.oathkeepers.org/defeating-d ... sion-suit/

A thermal evasion suit! :)

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Psychlonic
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby Psychlonic » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:15 am

Just watched the video over here, seems like a legit idea. Xanatos and I figured just a cloak might be ideal for superior mobility.


Or a snuggie.
There is a difference between those who feel safest in the light and those who feel safest in the dark.

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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby NewbieNinja » Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:14 pm

Or a snuggie.


: D

NewbieNinja
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby NewbieNinja » Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:49 pm

Was just surfing the web and saw this. Just wanted to share, haha
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Xanatos
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby Xanatos » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:07 pm

Don't want them damn government drones knowing you steal the neighbour's newspaper so they can't keep an eye on the stock market!
We are all books containing thousands of pages and within each lies an irreparable truth.
What is locked, can be opened. What is hidden, can be found. What is yours... can be mine.

NewbieNinja
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby NewbieNinja » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:05 am

Xanatos wrote:Don't want them damn government drones knowing you steal the neighbour's newspaper so they can't keep an eye on the stock market!


Damn right! Lol :D

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NINJAHAMMER
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby NINJAHAMMER » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:57 am

I was out at a flea market the other day and saw the plastic workout jogging suits real cheap and started to wonder if they would work against FLIR. The suits are used to retain body heat and increase weight loss due to sweating more. The suits are not mylar but I wonder how plastic would work. I know that Plexiglas stops a heat signature and considered used a Plexiglas shield concept until I read about Psychlonic's mylar shield ( which would be much lighter than carrying around a piece of Plexiglas). Of course, wearing the suit would get hot very quickly but you could quickly put it on after you hear sirens or the helicopter approaching. Just another word, if there are cars nearby, you can hide under the car at the engine or the tires and the FLIR operator may mistaken your heat signature for that of the tires and car engine of a recently driven car - if the FLIR viewer is really good though , he may see your heat signature at the engine area but not at the four tires and realize that doesn't make sense unless the car was started and left running without driving it.

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Xanatos
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby Xanatos » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:12 pm

Do vehicles block heat signatures that well?
We are all books containing thousands of pages and within each lies an irreparable truth.
What is locked, can be opened. What is hidden, can be found. What is yours... can be mine.

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NINJAHAMMER
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby NINJAHAMMER » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:53 am

FLIR picks up heat signatures and a vehicle that has recently been driven will have considerable heat at the engine and the tires ( due to the brakes). The concept is to blend in with the background heat signatures so that the operator of the FLIR overlooks your heat signature for that of the background heat. If I was on a roof , I would try to position myself close to a chimney, or on the ground, next to a heating/ cooling generator. Water is a very good blocker of heat signatures as well, so jumping into a pool, lake, hot tub etc may also work. Now, of course, it's best to put something between yourself and the FLIR; so don't just hide at a chimney, keep the chimney between you and the chopper so that he cannot see your outline or your heat signature. Don't jump onto a cars hood, hide under the car at the engine area. Combined with mylar blankets, this concept of hiding near heat can be effective.

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Xanatos
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Re: The FLIR Threat

Postby Xanatos » Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:43 am

I was thinking more the actual mass of the metal in the car would be enough to block your signature, especially in winter where you'd be hard pressed to find any warm objects to blend into. I'm just not sure if your body heat radiating from underneath the car would be picked up on a FLIR camera.
We are all books containing thousands of pages and within each lies an irreparable truth.
What is locked, can be opened. What is hidden, can be found. What is yours... can be mine.


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