The Color Black

Exchange the techniques and skills needed to walk the shadows. Post your guides and how-tos here.
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NewbieNinja
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The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Fri Apr 25, 2014 6:54 am

HI everyone,
This is something that has been confusing me for a long time. I've heard mixed things about solid black for stealth.
Some say that black works at night. When hit by a light, you may be mistaken for a shadow.

Others say it's as good as wearing blaze orange; it turns into a big black blob even at night.

What's your guys' experience with solid black?

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Xanatos
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Xanatos » Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:16 pm

This myth seems to stem from discussions on historical Ninja garb. People tend to claim "Ninjas never wore black because it stands out at night!" I don't know where people got this idea from because, as a colour, black tends to blend into the darkness the best. Have a look out your window at night; what's the most predominant colour you see? That's right, black. Some claim Ninjas wore dark blue as black "stands out from true darkness" and blue blends in better with the moonlight. Erm, no. Blue is a very unnatural colour and when exposed to the soft, blue moonlight it's only going to make you look... bluer.

During our first op at NOPCON last year (http://nightops.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1606) we all had a great opportunity to see how effective black works at night in a phototransitional environment. There were 6 of us on the first op (2 in camo, 4 in black) and, honestly, those wearing black performed just fine. When transitioning across lit areas their silhouettes stood out a bit from the terrain, although at a distance against a dark background they look just like random blobs of shadow. And when in the shadows themselves they were almost impossible to discern, even up close.

On the subject of camo vs. solids/black, camo is usually better if it's suited to the environment you're operating in since it breaks up your outline a lot more and blends into the terrain regardless of whether you're in light or darkness. But if you don't have access to any camo or are sticking to the shadows as much as possible (as all good operatives should do) then black works just fine. The problem with colours like blue (as mentioned above) is that it's very unnatural; when hit with a light source, it stands out like dog's bollocks. Black on the other hand is a very neutral colour and isn't as likely to be noticed.
Also, it's very slimming. :wink:
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Re: The Color Black

Post by eternally_on » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:28 pm

Xanatos wrote:Also, it's very slimming. :wink:
^^^ Gold.

Also, I remember this being a discussion on one of the totses back in the day. The topic at hand was the best color for doing a Night-Op and it was a general draw between some form of Camo, black and blue. For me, however, I usually tend to stick with black, but I don't really have much experience with others wearing black on Night-Ops, just other mixed colors and camo. Here soon, though, hopefully, my roommates and I will be in a better condition to go out and explore the night, so we'll do some "tests" and I'll get back with the results from personal experience, see what others have to say on the topic.

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Re: The Color Black

Post by Ghost » Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:03 am

Well, Xana pretty much hit the nail right on the head here. Black is almost always going to be worse than a camo pattern suited to the environment, but it has the advantage of working reasonably well in every environment. If I could only choose one single outfit to wear while opping, it would almost certainly be black. There isn't too much else I can say that Xana hasn't already covered.

As for the people who say black doesn't work - it's a myth propagated by armchair commandos who have no practical stealth experience. I've heard all of the "arguments" before - ninjas didn't wear black, black isn't a natural color, it'll make you look like a big dark silhouette in the night, ect. While some of these might be good arguments in theory, they completely fall apart in practice.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:51 am

My favorite color happens to be black; hearing that it does work for N-ops makes me feel a lot better.
Thanks so much you guys. :)

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Re: The Color Black

Post by Xanatos » Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:06 am

I use a combination of black & camo depending on the op location. Neither has failed me yet; I've had to hide from people in both forms of attire and remained perfectly hidden.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Shade » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:34 pm

This was almost a year ago, but I used to think black was the stealthiest thing. If you were sneaky, you wore black. However, I soon found that in practice, black made me look like my shadow. That didn't help unless I was over another pitch black shadow, however, and my shadow would make them look for me. I play capture the flag in nature, and it fell apart because although I was doing a scout scrawl, the pure black gave me away. Then I used gray, then blue, and then gave up for a bit, nobody gave me a straight answer.

Then I found camo, and it was AMAZING. People in broad daylight can't see me, even though my camo isn't military. I use hunting camo, which breaks up my silhouette even if I use it in front of a solid black or brown.

Little black straps or tools are fine over camo, because it's just a part of breaking it up. (BTW I use a realtree ap baseball cap with a realtree hardwood green camo suit.)

I don't mean to diss black too much, it works if you're great at hiding where the darkest shadows are, and I have a black cat who I keep accidentally stepping on cause I can't see him. I think camo I better for when people are looking for you though.

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Re: The Color Black

Post by Xanatos » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:27 am

That's the general gist. Camo will always out-perform solid black unless you happen to be hiding in a poorly lit coal shed, but if you've got nothing else then black works fine too.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Lynx » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:33 am

As far as I've experienced, the effectiveness of camouflage is completely reliant on where you are conducting your ops. I live in Western Europe. So during Winter/Fall, it gets dark very fast and very hard. As in - pitch black by 9PM. However, during the summer, it's bright as hell at night. Like a permanent sunset.

So looking outside during any other season than summer, all you'd see is pitch black. Even after your eyes have adjusted to the night, you can rarely make out anything other than silhouettes - speaking of suburban areas - and in rural areas (fields, forests) It's damn near impossible to see anything.
In that case, for me, black works perfectly. I've observed my partner during some ops where the partner was dressed completely in black - head to toe - and when crouching in a shadow, despite my eyes being adjusted (30+ minutes in darkness) I couldn't see shit. Not even the faintest.

So of course, your camouflage should suit your area. But all around - you can't really go wrong with all black. Even during the winter with heavy snowfall. A black solid shape (e.g. human curled into a ball or lying flat) is likely to look like anything but human, even in snow. Not sure why the hell you'd be sneaking around in snow. On top of that, solids look a lot more natural in urban areas, compared to woodland. I rarely see anything ambitiously colored in industrial areas - most buildings are either blue, gray or brown. Sometimes withered from the elements. Black, which is the closest thing to gray, blends in like rohypnol in my date's drink.

Now then, for me, there's the summer problem. The sunset in my area is often gold or pink, which really casts a funky shade on everything in the forest. So now I'm planning to buy a set of flecktarn pattern clothes, just for summer occasions. The lighter, more detailed pattern really appeals to me - as specially with It's likeness to multicam.

Black during the day is a big fat no-no, by all means.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Xanatos » Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:27 pm

German Flecktarn sounds about right for your area in summer. There's a guy on Youtube called Brent0331 who does tonnes of camo demonstrations, might be worth looking at which pattern would best suit your needs.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Psychlonic » Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:45 am

Shade wrote: I think camo I better for when people are looking for you though.
Welcome to the forum. This has always been my point of view on the matter, a majority of the time your being unseen is far more reliant on individual movement techniques alongside playing on complacency and expectations. What I mean is, any decent operative is going to be where nobody is even expecting someone to be in the first place. Nobody is looking. And to decrease those chance sightings, you always try to use your surrounding concealment to your advantage. Any color that does not draw immediate attention to yourself will, in this case, work just fine. It can be any color the monochromes of the night fall onto equally.

Speaking of monochromes, that's where I must disagree with blacks being the ideal solid. I would prefer a dark brown, olive, or gray color over black. Black has historically worked for all of us - myself included - as well groups around the world today and in the past. But I do also think that black is often darker than the night itself. It also blends into nothing in light, which is a problem if there are bright lights either ambient or in a search scenario. Where black works and works well, my other suggestions would likely work even better.

But back to camo, I operated in subdued urban digital patterns quite often with the pattern meeting the criteria of both matching the ambient monochrome levels and breaking my outline. There is zero reason to prefer black over this save a last ditch Mr. Inconspicuous effort if all else fails. As for environment specific patterns, that all depends on the terrain.

This topic is as old as the forum itself and even all of us old timers are going to disagree on this matter, but the above has been and will remain my opinion as someone who has used all of them. I have operated successfully in black plenty of times, but I have always felt the most visible in it. Mind, this is purely objective in nature. Everything said, to this day I still wear black on many less risky excursions. It's cheap, easy, and it's tradition.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:44 am

Thanks for the new inputs. I do feel black is a bit too dark, but at the same time you can work around it through cover and distorting your sillouhette.

I think black can work the best in a very specific situation. One night, I was driving and spotted a coyote. Now, coyotes blend in very well with nature. However its tan body stood out when my car lights hit it against a dark shadowy background. Had it been a black cat, I might have not noticed it.

I'm not very good at describing things; I might try and do a picture to illustrate what I mean.
The idea though, is that black can blend in if you happen to sillouhette yourself against a shadowy background. When a light hits you, any color other than will be to bright and stick out.

That's my theory anyways. I'll have to play around it with and hopefully I can take pictures to show what I mean.

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Re: The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:28 am

One more thing, it'll probably only happen rarely. Especially among the more experience oppers who might hide inside the dark shadows, rather than silhouette themselves in front of it.

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Re: The Color Black

Post by Xanatos » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:17 am

That's the idea behind black; when hit wit a light source, you may be passed off as a shadow, especially if you're amongst vegetation or other cover that casts lots of shadows. However, if you're wearing something like blue, the colour will return immediately.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Shade » Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:12 pm

Sometimes it isn't so much color as shape. Unless you're wearing neon or white, a sniper ghillie suit works even in the most urban areas. The idea is just to cover yourself with stuff so you don't look human, and in this case shadows will be a much better hiding place.
When you wear a bunch of leaves and strings in nature, it looks natural. When you wear strings and paper in cities, it isn't- however, it still helps you blend.
Pokey stuff makes it so you don't know where an outline is, so you won't see it stop and connect the dots. It fools the mind, so any ghillie-style suit will work well wherever.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Lynx » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:50 pm

Ghillie suits are pretty awesome. I remember you posted a link to a leaf-suit of sorts, suited for the woods. That looks so much more mobile than a full ghillie suit. You can't really bunch up into a ball and pretend to be a bush, but in the woods, that would be useful as hell.

My main concern with ghillie suits is the mobility. Climbing would be a hassle. But to even it out, you could add some skulls and burning incense into the webbing to pass off as a voodoo witch doctor. Not even cops come close to those.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Shade » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:17 pm

XD true. But if you can be next to invisible, that's worth trading in mobility. One of the tricks I've seen is you get essentially a cape/cloak ghillie suit that you can take off to flee, and it makes you invisible where it counts.

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Re: The Color Black

Post by Lynx » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:39 am

Image

There's a sale on this, so I could get both pieces for the price of the jacket.
However, I dunno where the hell that would blend in. Sure, wheat field/dry vegetation. But not urban or leafy green areas, unless the ground is light brown.
It used to be standard clothing for Russian tank crews.

Help me out here, should I get it?
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Xanatos » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:26 pm

Unless you plan on dyeing it a darker shade, I wouldn't.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Lynx » Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:35 pm

Right... that's actually a marvelous idea. I'd have myself a nice set of night camo-ish clothes.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Xanatos » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:00 am

I'm re-reading a book on ninjutsu I picked up a few years ago (True Path of the Ninja: A Definitive Translation of the Shoninki by Antony Cummins and Yoshie Minami) and came across an early passage which I'll just quote below:
The colour of your clothes should be one of the following colours: brown, dark red (this is called numerigaki), black, or navy blue. These are so common that it is hard to stand out while wearing them.
So that answers that old question - ninjas did indeed wear black. They probably didn't wear it all that often because proper black dye for clothes was difficult to produce and so was usually reserved for those who could afford it.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:33 am

Oh, how interesting! thx for sharing!

....and often times, ppl will say "ninja's never wore black!"

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Re: The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:33 pm

TL;DR ahead!

I haven't been opping since about January or February.... haven't visited this site either due to personal issues, and I didn't want to pollute the forums.

Just got back from a little Nop. This was just an experimental run on the edge of town. The sky was full of clouds, creating lots of ambient light. I felt that I stuck out really bad....

I also did an experiment, using a black plastic bucket (about 5 gallons) and my multicam ACU jacket. I placed the bucket down, turned away and walked about 30 feet away. Turned around Black bucket was still visible. I went back to the black bucket and covered it with my multicam jacket.

I did the same thing, walking away about 30ft. When I turned around, the multicam basically disappeared. I couldn't tell where it was from that distance. Only when I started walking back and looking for it did I see it...

I'm starting to feel what Psychlonic mentioned.... that there's no reason to choose black over camo (that's suited to your environment). Initially, I thought I could save $$ because black tends to be cheaper... but I would've saved more if I'd skip black and went straight for multicam.

I think black could still work if you have good movement and people aren't actively searching for you.... but why choose black when something else works better? And multicam seems to work over a wide variety of environments. The only thing I can think of is multicam is a bit weak when it comes to dark green vegetation.

Oh and also, black is better for blending with trash bags :P


TL;DR version: I'm switching away from black to Multicam.

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Re: The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:44 pm

After waking up, I think I'm gonna go and give black another try lol....
I thought about the bucket experiment.... maybe I wasn't exactly fair because I left the black bucket in the open, instead of next to something like a bush where the silhouette could meld.

In addition, a the silhouette of a bucket is like a rectangle.... so 4 straight lines.... straight lines stick out in nature. To improve on this experiment, I'd have to place whatever black object next to another object for the two silhouettes to meld. And the object i use can't be full of straight lines. A person is able to morph their silhouette into a black blob, instead of a black rectangle.

When I was wearing black, I'd try to meld my silhouette to the bushes and mostly green vegetation. Dry vegetation is lighter and I feel more exposed when moving along dry plants.


I thought about it as I was falling asleep, and I think it might be good to train with solids including black. Mostly, it will help build skill in movement and allow you to get by if you can't access camo for whatever reason.


Btw, it's so nice and forgiving to train on the edge of town... you get to make mistakes and run experiments with little worry of being seen.

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Re: The Color Black

Post by Xanatos » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:50 pm

Additionally, try placing the bucket in shadows cast by the moon or street lights. Makes a helluva difference.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Tenshin » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:18 pm

Oh, let me chime in on this discussion!

First, Xanatos, that quote from the Shoninki (True Path of the Ninja) is a bit misleading because it is, in fact, referring to clothes to be worn during the DAY! Or daytime (yonin) operations. The funny thing is that those colours, while they may seem stealthy, were actually the most common colours of clothing in normal everyday feudal Japan, so wearing them just makes you blend in with the crowd. Tie down your loose ends (sleeves, pants), wrap your face with a common scarf, and you've now got the stereotypical image of a ninja! Except the likelihood of it being all one colour is not very high. Chances are, it was a combo of the above listed colours. The fact that the traditional ninja suit was nothing really out of the ordinary is a huge mythbuster, but I still think the get up is sweet as all hell.

HOWEVER, having that said about the colours, an ancient Yoshimori ninja poem that is quoted in historical manuals such as the Shoninki states,

“On a moonlit night, wearing white is unobtrusive. While on a moonless night, you should be dressed in black.”

So yes, the whole anti-black thing when it comes to ninja at night is for sure wrong, and much more of a modern invention, albeit because of modern day lighting. Newbieninja, try wearing your blackest of black clothing out in the middle of nowhere - you're going to be pretty damn hidden! Now enter the city where you have a bunch of city lights, and now you've got a problem. Add the cloud cover you mentioned, and it seems to reflect the city light and keep it in. Winter does this as well with the clouds and it really sucks! What I do to combat it is wear more of a faded black. As Xanatos mentioned, shadows cast by certain objects will also make a difference. The problem with cloud covering is that sometimes it works against shadows and makes them both more lit and less apparent. When the moon is out in full swing, the shadows become deeper. But a cloudless, moonless night seems to be best. Add in rain and wind, and you're in golden territory.

This is what I have found :)

Also, being new here, I will fully appreciate and pounce on all thread resurrections, haha!
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Re: The Color Black

Post by CookieThief » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:18 am

When is comes to color in an urbanized environment dark grey works the best for me. The side walks, walls, buildings and most urban structures are grey concrete. Add a shadow and you are hidden.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:22 am

Additionally, try placing the bucket in shadows cast by the moon or street lights. Makes a helluva difference.

Good idea, thx!

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Re: The Color Black

Post by Xanatos » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:43 am

Tenshin wrote:First, Xanatos, that quote from the Shoninki (True Path of the Ninja) is a bit misleading because it is, in fact, referring to clothes to be worn during the DAY! Or daytime (yonin) operations. The funny thing is that those colours, while they may seem stealthy, were actually the most common colours of clothing in normal everyday feudal Japan, so wearing them just makes you blend in with the crowd.
True, true, the Shoninki mainly deals with social stealth as opposed to our more traditional form of shadow stealth. But I think those studying it at the time would also intuit that using their everyday clothes for 'night ops' (when they had to infiltrate a place under cover of darkness, for instance) would blend into the darkness best.
Tenshin wrote:“On a moonlit night, wearing white is unobtrusive. While on a moonless night, you should be dressed in black.”
I've read that before, not sure wearing white - especially on a moonlit night - is the wisest thing to do. I've been on moonlit ops and seen white cars parked in fields and they stand out like a fucking light house. Sure they weren't referring to a lighter shade of grey perhaps and it just got lost in translation? Because white only really blends into snow.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:47 am

Yeah, I I hate the clouds... Tenshin, I do find it interesting that u point out it's from a modern invention.... light bulbs. Didn't realize that lol.

I guess maybe the old ninjas never had a big problem with clouds. I doubt torches and candles can make the clouds glow the same way city lights do.

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Re: The Color Black

Post by Tenshin » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:56 am

CookieThief wrote:When is comes to color in an urbanized environment dark grey works the best for me. The side walks, walls, buildings and most urban structures are grey concrete. Add a shadow and you are hidden.
Yeah man, which is essentially kind of like faded black!
Xanatos wrote: I've read that before, not sure wearing white - especially on a moonlit night - is the wisest thing to do. I've been on moonlit ops and seen white cars parked in fields and they stand out like a fucking light house. Sure they weren't referring to a lighter shade of grey perhaps and it just got lost in translation? Because white only really blends into snow.
Yeah, the white part also confuses the hell out of me. I've never bothered to try it, but I know some people who probably have - I should ask them what's up. Unless it was a scribal error...
NewbieNinja wrote:I guess maybe the old ninjas never had a big problem with clouds. I doubt torches and candles can make the clouds glow the same way city lights do.
Yeah, torches and candles definitely don't pollute the sky like city lights. Next time you're driving on the highway outside of the city at night, pay attention to the light as you draw near towards a city. It's pretty crazy!
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Re: The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:40 pm

Tenshin wrote: Yeah, torches and candles definitely don't pollute the sky like city lights. Next time you're driving on the highway outside of the city at night, pay attention to the light as you draw near towards a city. It's pretty crazy!
Will do!! :)

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Re: The Color Black

Post by Tenshin » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:03 am

Just as an FYI, I did ask around about the white thing, and it was a total bust, as expected. Either it was a transcription error or the white back then wasn't so white!
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Xanatos » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:26 am

Figured as much. I doubt they had bleach back then.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:09 am

I've been testing my multicam and black uniforms. Multicam generally works better where I'm at (edge of town w/ mostly dry vegetation). On nights with moonlight, Black seems to work well hiding in deep shadows cast by the moon. Black seems to stick out most on cloudy nights. On cloudy nights, I feel a bit uneasy leaving my ball form or leaving an object that I can silhouette.

About a year ago, I posted that I had seen a coyote while driving because my lights hit it while nothing was in the background behind it. This resulted in coyote tan against a black background.
I found an image that kind of illustrates what I saw. These guys are wearing tiger stripe uniforms with black vests & gear. In the background above their waist is black. The black vests blend into this black empty space when hit by a light. I think that in this situation, black would blend in better than any other color.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:26 am

I found this interesting entry in the Ultimate Sniper Book by John Plaster pg 374: (Long Quote)
Black BDUs, very popular for entry teams, suffer from the same shortcoming as olive drab, but black makes for a more distinct outline that can compromise a sniper. I once argued this with a Chicago-area police sniper whose entire tac team wore black, he said, because it "intimidated" bad guys. This particular cop was a "know-it-all," so my words were wasted; I hope they aren't wasted with you.

Understand that in order to be "intimidated," a bad guy has to see you- and if he can see you, he can shoot you. Intimidation works against a gunman who wants to be talked out, but it's begging for death from a determined man who wants to kill someone, especially a police sniper.

Black's not a bad color for entry teams, where they gain a short advantage by startling and intimidating hostiles, especially when wearing helmets and gas masks. But it's a terrible color for stealth and infiltration. What does a shotgun armed bad guy call two black-attired cops sneaking toward him in broad day light? skeet.

We proved the inferiority of black uniforms during a SWAT competition in Gulfport, Mississippi, when every single black attired competitor was detected during an observation exercise. It made believers out of everyone. Enough said.

I'm not sure if the competition was in day light only. But black is scary, If you're into confrontational bad ideas, you might be able to startle and freeze someone for a second or two. I was comparing images of swat teams in black and multicam. Imho, the black does looks scarier, even though they got basically the same gear.... I'm not sure why though.... why is black scary/intimidating?

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Re: The Color Black

Post by Xanatos » Mon Jul 04, 2016 5:33 pm

Psychological association with 'dark' things; night time, shadows, death, the occult, niggers, etc.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by Lynx » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:54 pm

I'm in firm belief that a black suit will naturally camouflage itself when working in a rural setting. No need to buy multicam - roll around in the dirt.
Xanatos wrote:Psychological association with 'dark' things; night time, shadows, death, the occult, niggers, etc.
Schema theory at work.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:32 am

What does a shotgun armed bad guy call two black-attired cops sneaking toward him in broad day light?
Keep in mind that the study doesn't specify if night time observations were included. It's possible that the observations were done only during the day....?


Also, I think black would work well indoors. Maybe like a black blob behind some furniture in the corner or under the table.... something like that.

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Re: The Color Black

Post by Xanatos » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:13 am

Lynx wrote:I'm in firm belief that a black suit will naturally camouflage itself when working in a rural setting. No need to buy multicam - roll around in the dirt.
I've heard of this working for UCP (that pattern basically only works when it's covered in mud) but I don't think dirt shows up on dark clothing as easily to make much of a difference.
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Re: The Color Black

Post by NewbieNinja » Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:16 pm

Just wanted to share this interesting read. It's relating to black items viewed under night vision.

http://www.john-tom.com/AirsoftPaintbal ... /Camo.html


I hope not too many people own these things.

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Re: The Color Black

Post by Xanatos » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:24 pm

I think the only time you'd encounter IR on an op is on security cameras, and they're gonna be picking up movement anyway so it doesn't matter what you're wearing.

I noticed this effect when reviewing the footage from my Church Op; my camera had a built-in IR illuminator that I used to record in the dark (only works at short range and it's a pain in the arse trying to op with a bright screen in your face). Even though my black t-shirt was darker than the grey skivvy I was wearing underneath, in IR it appeared the opposite.
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